[UK Telegraph's Tim Stanley] Why I became a Catholic [Ecumenical]

Catholic Herald ^ | 8/16/15 | Tim Stanley

[ealgeone]

Christ died for ALL of our sins, not just the big ones.

Then there is no need for penance.

[markomalley]

Then there is no need for penance.

So is it your belief that one cannot sin after being baptized (if you believe in baptismal regeneration cf 1 Pet 3:21) or after being "born again" (if you believe baptism is merely an ordinance)?

Not trying to cause a fight, just trying to understand what you're trying to say here.

[ealgeone]

>>Then there is no need for penance. << So is it your belief that one cannot sin after being baptized (if you believe in baptismal regeneration cf 1 Pet 3:21) or after being "born again" (if you believe baptism is merely an ordinance)?

Do we sin after we are saved? Yes.

I don't know of a Christian who would deny that.

When Christ died for us, He died for all of our sins...past, present and future.

His death is a one-time sacrifice as noted in Hebrews 9:24-28.

When we place our faith in Christ, our sins are covered and will not be taken into account (Romans 4:7-8).

If one believes that Christ has died for all of our sins, both big ones and small ones, as you correctly noted, what can you do to atone for your sins that has not already been done on the Cross?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

markomally,
It is perfectly to discuss disagreement on an ecumenical thread, according to the section of the Religion Moderator’s page that covers this. This, I’ve tried to do in a way that meets his instructions.

I also passed on the adhominem comments directed at me. I agree that they do not further civil discussion.

I believe that since this is an open thread, your intent in posting is different than the reality of who it is posted to. It is open. That should not prevent it from encouraging Catholics for some reason, nor from being a vehicle for civil discussion.

Best.

[Montana_Sam]

Not clear on your point: When he is lost for words....why not turn to Christ??....if He's his friend.
When the seas get choppy...why not turn to Christ??...if He's his friend.

Christ is the head of the Church. And in Catholicism, we have the deepest, most personal relationship with Christ that exists this side of Heaven: the Eucharist. Denominational protestants and evangelicals have only a symbol, because they have rejected the authority that Christ embued in what we call the Papacy - started by Jesus naming Simon Peter as head of the Church. Come join the Church, and fulfill the life that Jesus promised us in John 6.

[ealgeone]

And in Catholicism, we have the deepest, most personal relationship with Christ that exists this side of Heaven: the Eucharist.

If that is the case why does he turn to mere people and not Christ?

[Montana_Sam]

If that is the case why does he turn to mere people and not Christ?

Not understanding your context.

[markomalley]

If one believes that Christ has died for all of our sins, both big ones and small ones, as you correctly noted, what can you do to atone for your sins that has not already been done on the Cross?

Fair enough.

When you sin against another person, you ask for forgiveness, right?

Let us say, hypothetically, that you "borrowed" your neighbor's lawnmower in the middle of the night.

What are the stages that you go through:

• You sneak over to his shed and take his lawnmower and put it in your garage.
• It sits there and you start feeling a little bit guilty about it (assuming you have a conscience like most of us, of course)
• The guilt grows until you have a hard time sleeping at night (we Catholics call that authentic contrition)
• You finally decide that you want a decent night's sleep, so you admit what you did and tell your neighbor you're sorry. (we Catholics call that confession)
• Your neighbor tells you that he forgives you. (we Catholics call that absolution)

And that's that, right?

Oh, wait. You've got to give the lawnmower back.

• So you wheel the lawnmower back over to the neighbor's shed (we Catholics call that satisfaction)

Here's the thing: we Catholics believe that whenever you sin against your neighbor, you also sin against God. (And yes, there are many instances where you can sin against God and not involve your neighbor in any way)

We basically go through the same kind of process in the Sacrament of Penance:

• We recognize that we have done wrong (sinned). And we feel badly about it (contrition)
• We confess what we did (confession)
• God, working through the priest, tells us that we're forgiven (absolution)
• We do some minor token (typically some prayers) in a token effort to restore the right order (spiritually, we return the neighbor's lawnmower) (satisfaction)

We recognize that the prayers are literally a token. The real work, as you so eloquently point out, was done on the cross. However, the prayers or other minor token are really more for our own good than anything else, if you were to look at it objectively. They help restore our minds to the right order...clean out some unhealthy junk there that might be contributing to our own concupiscence.

[markomalley]

It is perfectly to discuss disagreement on an ecumenical thread, according to the section of the Religion Moderator’s page that covers this. This, I’ve tried to do in a way that meets his instructions.

Absolutely. Not saying otherwise. By all means discuss!!

I find that there are those who immediately take any conversion thread as being an attempt to proselytize or an attempt to denigrate the group the person left. That was not the purpose here.

My point in making the statement I did was that this was not my intent: I found that the essay was quite edifying to me and I wanted to pass that on for the edification of other Catholics.

[ealgeone]

•God, working through the priest, tells us that we're forgiven (absolution) •We do some minor token (typically some prayers) in a token effort to restore the right order (spiritually, we return the neighbor's lawnmower) (satisfaction)

If you believe Christ has forgiven you of your sins....why do you need a priest?? Why not go straight to Christ? He's listening I promise you.

The penance I've seen/heard catholics do is usually more than a couple of prayers.

I do agree that when we sin we need to confess this to God.

Where I do disagree is the concept of the mortal sin causing you to lose your salvation.

That flies against everything Paul writes about in Galatians, Romans and Ephesians when he notes we have been adopted as His sons. If you understand the Roman legal status of an adopted child you will understand why Paul draws on that picture for these audiences.

It goes against everything in Ephesians 1:13-14 as well.

[ealgeone]

If, as you note catholics have the "deepest, most personal relationship with Christ that exists this side of Heaven: the Eucharist", why not go straight to Him??

If you're at a lost for words as the article notes....why pray to St Frances de Sales?? That he is praying to people is a whole nother topic in itself. We don't pray to created beings....we pray to Christ.

Is not the Holy Spirit already praying for us in ways we can't even put into Words? (Romans 8:26)

If I'm at a loss for words or the seas or choppy I may ask my friends to pray for me.....but my prayers will be directed to Christ....not a created, mortal, finite being.

Or as Paul writes in Galatians 4 I may cry out Abba! Father!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I believe and respect your intent.

Unlike many here, I’m fine with anyone worshiping God in whichever church denomination He leads them to. He’s more than capable. Catholic to Protestant? No problem. Protestant to Catholic? No problem. Churches do not save. He saves.

It is always about Him and his indescribable gift.

[Montana_Sam]

(I'm going to try to throw in a bit of clarification - not picking a fight or starting an argument, but explaining a bit of Catholic doctrine, OK?)

In John 20:22-23, Jesus tells his apostles that whosoever's sins they forgive, those sins are forgiven, or if they decree that the sins are retained, then they are retained. And mortal sin does indeed separate us from the life of the Church (which is, according to Paul, the body of Christ), and Jesus adjures us to persevere to the end, as does Paul. Perseverance would not be necessary if we are saved once, for all time. Following on, the way of the cross, where Jesus fell and rose several times carrying his cross to Calvary gives us this example, as well as the example of St. Peter who denies Jesus three times, yet is commissioned to lead the Church (feed my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep).

We are all sinners, and we need each other as Paul says to encourage one another, and to pray together.

[Syncro]

in Catholicism, we have the deepest, most personal relationship with Christ that exists this side of Heaven

Your belief is duly noted.

I and other Christians would respectrully disagree as we have Jesus IN us 24/7 and we are IN Jesus 24/7.

That's the result of being born again and following Jesus.

There is no need to use Catholic symbols for us, members of the Body of Christ.

Denominational protestants and evangelicals have only a symbol, because they have rejected the authority that Christ embued [sic] in what we call the Papacy

Ahem...

Whatever works for you. Myself, like the Orthodox, from which Catholicism split centuries ago as they protested some of the Christian beliefs of the Orthodox, do not have to follow rules of Catholicism.

The Orthodox do not follow the Catholic pope as far as my research of history has shown.

As this is an Ecumenical thread, it would behoove posters to not state as fact speculations about other belief systems.

[Salvation]

GOD does forgive our sins!

The formula of absolution used in the Latin Church expresses the essential elements of this sacrament: The Father of mercies is the source of all forgiveness. He effects the reconciliation of sinners through the Passover of his Son and the gift of his Spirit, through the prayer and ministry of the Church:

God, the Father of mercies, through the death and the resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

[ealgeone]

Colossians 2:13-14

The forgiveness of sins was effected on the cross for those who believe. Our sins are not only forgiven but they are blotted out.

The Greek meaning behind this is to completely remove...to wipe out....obliterate. In other words....they are gone.

Our sins are covered and not taken into account. Romans 4:7-8

They are separated as far as the east from the west. Psalms 123:12

He remembers them no more. Hebrews 10:17

A priest is not needed to forgive what has already been forgiven.

We have but one priest....Christ Jesus.

[Montana_Sam]

We have but one priest....Christ Jesus

That is correct.

[Montana_Sam]

Myself, ..., [I] do not have to follow rules of Catholicism.

No one does.

[ealgeone]

And how did they forgive sins? Acts 3:19

The concept of mortal sin causing you to lose your salvation goes against Ephesians 1:13-14...and the NT in general.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We have been sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. The meaning behind pledge in the Greek is one of earnest money. If you've purchased a home you know what earnest money is....and you don't get it back.

Three times Paul used this word three times all noting we have been given the Spirit as a pledge or guarantor of our inheritance.

No where in the NT does it ever say we are unsealed or that we can unseal ourselves.

John records Christ as saying the following John 6:35-40:

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

If anyone thinks they can commit a sin that is greater than what Christ is able to forgive they have been deceived.

[ealgeone]

>We have but one priest....Christ Jesus<

That is correct.

So no need for an earthly priest to re-offer the sacrifice of Christ again and again and again......

Christ is the one Who forgives. See my post regarding Colossians 2.