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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
But this verse here is not strong at all for proving that we may "fall from grace." The verse literally says that the people who fall from grace are the ones who are "justified by works."

Which is just what those were in the liberty of Christ, in grace, are clearly warned against doing. Thus they fell from grace by which Christ had made these believers free.

It is not teaching that Christians can "fall from grace."

Thus it only warns believers, as believers, against doing so, and effectually becoming unbelievers.

I think it is clear that believers are warned against making Christ of no effect, or profiting them nothing, and falling from grace by submitting to a gospel of salvation by the merit of moral worthiness as law-keepers, versus faith which is counted for righteousness, and is manifested by working to fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

Indeed, but we should not stretch this into believing that Paul believed his labour to be the deciding factor of salvation....In other words, salvation depends on God's grace alone,

There is no contradiction, and what is being said by Paul is that he feared that his labor as an instrument of grace would be in vain if they gave into the pressure to deny the faith they manifestly had believed.

We have been thru this before, and one can attempt to compel all such texts (such as warns believers as believers against having an evil heart of unbelief, and departing from the living God, making Christ of no effect, becoming of no profit, falling from grace, drawing back into bondage and perdition, versus holding fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:38; Gal. 5:1-4) which warn of change of one state into another, forfeiting what faith appropriated), to conform to Calvinistic doctrine, and mean what i see them as most plainly teaching.

And if the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints (the P in TULIP) is true, and which is the best case for OSAS and is far better than the antinomianic OSAS too many profess today, then these texts could not mean what i see them as most plainly conveying.

However, despite the temptation, I would rather allow that there is a seeming contradiction or that the Calvinistic conclusions are in error than to compel all such texts to mean contrary to what i honestly see them saying. As said, i see no other alternative unless one dares to hold that such warnings and exhortations are theoretical, as a means of motivating believers to stand firm in the faith. Until one tells them they cannot make Christ of no effect...

293 posted on 05/21/2015 7:35:20 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
I think it is clear that believers are warned against making Christ of no effect, or profiting them nothing, and falling from grace by submitting to a gospel of salvation by the merit of moral worthiness as law-keepers,

Again, however, you wrest the phrase "fallen from grace" from a statement that declares that those who are "justified by the law" are the ones who do so. Who can be justified by the law? And if you are justified by the law, do you even need grace? How can this be a warning of a real possibility-- that these people might get justified by the law and thus fall from grace? That's clearly Paul's point, because he is arguing to people who know that men are saved by Grace, and, therefore, it is a logical impossibility to become justified by the law if salvation is by grace. In other words, it is an argument that states: It is impossible to try to earn your salvation, because you know that you are saved by grace, and such a soteriology forsakes grace. The warning here is against upholding a vain doctrine of works-righteousness, but the phrase "fallen from grace" is not part of that warning, but instead it is part of the argument.

However, despite the temptation, I would rather allow that there is a seeming contradiction or that the Calvinistic conclusions are in error than to compel all such texts to mean contrary to what i honestly see them saying.

But your verses do not really prove what you claim, and leaves you open to attack when we point to such verses that plainly declare that God is the master of salvation from beginning to end. If you are the the deciding factor in salvation, then how can it be said that we receive all things from heaven, and that we do not differ with another? But clearly some people do differ, because some people persevere unto the end, and others do not, and yet all are given the same grace and the same warnings!

We do not read the scriptures which command and warn against something and ignore the verses that say that God gives what He commands!

296 posted on 05/21/2015 3:27:13 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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