The Reformation is over. Catholics 0, Protestants 1

triablogue ^ | April 13, 2015 | Jerry Walls

[RnMomof7]

I'm going to transcribe an article that Jerry Walls wrote when he was a grad student at Notre Dame:

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I am nearing the end of three very happy (with a brief interlude) years as a graduate student in the philosophy department at Notre Dame. The philosophy department is quite lively and stimulating and I have learned a great deal about my discipline.

Along the way, I have also acquired an education of another sort–namely in the ways of the Roman Catholic Church. My education in this regard has been informal and piecemeal, to be sure. My insights have been gathered from diverse sources: from lectures, from letters to the Observer, from articles in the conservative magazine Fidelity, from interaction with undergraduates I have taught. But most of all, I have learned from numerous conversations with students and faculty in the philosophy and theology departments, many of which have involved a friend who is a former Roman Catholic seminarian. While my informal education in these matters hardly qualifies me to speak as an authority, Roman Catholics may find interesting how one Protestant in their midst has come to perceive them. I can communicate my perceptions most clearly, I think, by briefly describing three types of Catholics I have encountered. 

First, I have met a fair number of conservative Catholics. Those who belong to this group like to characterize themselves as thoroughly Catholic. They stress the teaching authority of the Church and are quick to defend the official Catholic position on all points. For such persons, papal encyclicals are not to be debated; they are to be accepted and obeyed. Many conservative Catholics, I suspect, hold their views out of a sense of loyalty to their upbringing. Others, however, defend their views with learning, intelligence, and at times, intensity.

At the other end of the spectrum of course, are the liberal Catholics. These persons are openly skeptical not only about distinctively Roman doctrines such as papal infallibility, but also about basic Christian doctrine as embodied in the ecumenical creeds. It is not clear in what sense such persons would even be called Christians. Nevertheless, if asked their religious preference, on a college application say, they would identify themselves as Catholics. I have no idea how many Catholics are liberals of this stripe, but I have met only a few here at Notre Dame.

It is the third type of Catholic, I am inclined to think, which represents the majority. Certainly most of the Catholics I have met are of this type. I call this group "functional protestants."

Many Catholics, no doubt, will find this designation offensive, so let me hasten to explain what I mean by it. One of the fundamental lines of difference between Catholics and Protestants, going back to the Reformation, concerns the issue of doctrinal authority. The traditional Roman Catholic view, as I understand it, is that its official teachings are guaranteed to be infallible, particularly when the pope or an ecumenical council exercises "extraordinary magisterium" when making doctrinal or moral pronouncements. Protestants have traditionally rejected this claim in favor of the view that Scripture alone is infallible in matters doctrinal and moral. This was the conviction MartinLuther came to hold after he arrived at the conclusion that both popes and church councils have erred. After this, his excommunication was all but inevitable.

When I say most Catholics are functional Protestants I simply mean that most Catholics do not accept the authority claims of their Church. In actual belief and practice, they are much closer to the Protestant view.

This is apparent from the fact that many Catholics do not accept explicitly defined dogmas of their Church. For example, I have talked with several Catholics who are doubtful, at best, about the Marian dogmas, even though these have the status of infallible doctrine in their church. Such Catholics have often made it clear to me that they believe the basic Christian doctrine as defined in the creeds. But they frankly admit that they think their Church has taken some wrong turns in her recent history. Where this is the case, they do not feel compelled to follow. As one of my functional Protestant friends put it: "I am a Roman Catholic, but I am more concerned about being Catholic than about being Roman."

That many Catholics are functionally Protestant is also evident in their attitude toward the distinctive moral teachings of their Church. The obvious example here is the Roman Catholic teaching that all forms of "artificial" birth control are immoral. The official view was reaffirmed explicitly by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, and has been reiterated again and again by Pope John Paul II. Nevertheless, as the article on Humanae Vitae in the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion noted, "the papal ban is simply being ignored," and "a concrete authority crisis has thus emerged."

I attended the recent debate on abortion between Fr. James Burtchaell and Daniel Maguire. It is interesting to me that Fr. Burtchaell who eloquently defended the conservative view on abortion, admitted to a questioner that he rejects his Church's teaching on birth control. I could not help but wonder: is Fr. Burtchaell, Catholic statesman though he is, also among the functional Protestants?

This raises, of course, the deeper issue here: to what extent can a member of the Roman Catholic Church disagree with the official teachings of his Church and still be a faithful Catholic? Can one reject the teaching of a papal encyclical while remaining a faithful Catholic? If so, can he also reject a doctrine which the pope has declared infallible?

I have put these questions to several Catholics. Conservative have assured me that the answer to both the latter questions is no. Others insist the answer is yes.

This brings me to a final point concerning functional Protestants: they do consider themselves faithful Catholics. I have  often pointed out in conversation with such Catholics that their views differ little from mine. Why then remain Catholic I ask. In response, these Catholics make it clear to me that they love their Church and intend to remain loyal to it. More than one has compared the Church to his family. One's family makes mistakes, but one does not therefore choose to join another family.

I am not sure what to make of this response. It is not clear to me that one can line up behind Luther in holding that the Popes and councils have erred in their doctrinal and moral pronouncements, and still be a faithful Catholic.  But on the other hand, things have changed since the 16C. It is no longer the case that a Catholic will be excommunicated for holding what Luther held. Perhaps this is just another sign that the Reformation is–despite the pope's best efforts–finally taking hold within the Roman Church. 

Jerry Walls, "Reformational Theology found in Catholicism," The Observer, Thursday, April 23, 1978, p8.

[daniel1212]

If he does not reflect what you believe then why don’t you reject him?

We do in part, just as some RCs say they reject popes who required extermination of theological opponents by the sword of men, based on V2 inclusiveness, and other RCs reject popes who affirm Prot as brethren, based on past RC statements on exclusivity.

And if you really have been lurking since 98 then you should have seen both kinds here. One can call for a RC monarchy and the extermination of all Prots, commending the killing of men like Tyndale and the Spanish Inquisition, and the other can call us brethren and say that the past bloody attempts at extermination were wrong.

We do not know which kind of RC you are, but the difference is that our standard must be unchanging Scripture, not changeable Rome.

[daniel1212]

When princes used the office of the Inquisition to extort money from/confiscate the holdings of Jews - they weren't acting according to Church doctrine. They were committing sin.

No, as this - and their torture and murder - was done in obedience to popes, as such required this of "crypto Catholics" Jews, among others.

► Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda:

(25) Those convicted of heresy by the aforesaid Diocesan Bishop,surrogate or inquisitors, shall be taken in shackles to the head of state or ruler or his special representative, instantly, or at least within five days, and the latter shall apply the regulations promulgated against such persons.{shall be burned}

(26) The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody... to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

(32)The head of state or ruler must, within ten days after the accusation, complete the following tasks: the destruction of the houses, the imposition of the fines, the consigning and dividing-up of the valuables that have been found or seized,

(34)The head of state or ruler must divide up all the property of the heretics that is seized or discovered by the aforesaid officials, and the fines exacted from these heretics, in the form and manner following: one-third shall go to the government of the state or district. The second as a reward of the industry of the office shall go to the officials who handled this particular case. The third shall be deposited in some secure place to be kept by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and inquisitors,and spent as they shall think fit to promote the faith and extirpate{11} heretics, this policy prevailing in spite of any statute that has been or shall be enacted against this dividing-up of the heretics' property. - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf

► Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council (canon 3), 1215:

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure...to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church. - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp ,

In addition is that which you have been shown before , leaving you without excuse for your continued one-sided self righteousness attacks on Luther, as if we followed him as you are to follow popes, and which murderers did:

“the legislation enacted in the 1930s by the Nazis in their Nuremberg Laws and by the Italian Fascists with their racial laws—which stripped the Jews of their rights as citizens—was modeled on measures that the [Roman Catholic] Church itself had enforced for as long as it was in a position to do so” (9).

In 1466,

in festivities sponsored by Pope Paul II, Jews were made to race naked through the streets of the city. A particularly evocative later account describes them: “Races were run on each of the eight days of the Carnival by horses, asses and buffaloes, old men, lads, children, and Jews. Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them, and at the same time, more amusing for the spectators. They ran from the Arch of Domitian to the Church of St. Mark at the end of the Corso at full tilt, amid Rome’s taunting shrieks of encouragement and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily. Two centuries later, these practices, now deemed indecorous and unbefitting the dignity of the Holy City, were stopped by Clement IX. In their place the Pope assessed a heavy tax on the Jews to help pay the costs of the city’s Carnival celebrations.

But various other Carnival rites continued. For many years the rabbis of the ghetto were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the streets to the jeers of the crow, pelted by a variety of missiles. Such rites were not peculiar to Rome. In Pisa in the eighteenth century, for example, it was customary each year, as part of Carnival, for students to chase after the fattest Jew in the city, capture him, weigh him, and then make him give them his weight in sugar-coated almonds.

In 1779, Pius VI resurrected some of the Carnival rites that had been neglected in recent years. Most prominent among them was the feudal rite of homage, in which ghetto officials, made to wear special clothes, stood before an unruly mob in a crowded piazza, making an offering to Rome’s governors.

It was this practice that occasioned the formal plea from the ghetto to Pope Gregory XVI in 1836. The Jews argued that such rites should be abandoned, and cited previous popes who had ordered them halted. They asked that, in his mercy, the Pope now do the same. On November 5, the Pope met with his secretary of state to discuss the plea. A note on the secretary of state’s copy of the petition, along with his signature, records the Pope’s decision: “It is not opportune to make any innovation.” The annual rites continued.

“When all is said and done, the [Roman Catholic] Church’s claim of lack of responsibility for the kind of anti-Semitism that made the Holocaust possible comes down to this: The Roman Catholic Church never called for, or sanctioned, the mass murder of the Jews. Yes, the Jews should be stripped of their rights as equal citizens. Yes, they should be kept from contact with the rest of society. But Christian Charity and Christian theology forbade good Christians to round them up and murder them.”

See more in part 5 of a series (1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5, 6 .

Cum nimis absurdum was a papal bull issued by Pope Paul IV dated 14 July 1555. It takes its name from its first words:^[1] "Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery..."

The bull revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States, renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradations and restrictions on their personal freedom.

The bull established the Roman Ghetto and required the Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in it. The Ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city. Under the bull, Jewish males were required to wear a pointed yellow hat, and Jewish females a yellow kerchief (see yellow badge). Jews were required to attend compulsory Catholic sermons on the Jewish shabbat.

The bull also subjected Jews to various other restrictions such as a prohibition on property ownership and practising medicine among Christians. Jews were allowed to practice only unskilled jobs, as rag men, secondhand dealers ^[2] or fish mongers. They could also be pawnbrokers.

Paul IV's successor, Pope Pius IV, enforced the creation of other ghettos in most Italian towns, and his successor, Pope Pius V, recommended them to other bordering states. The Papal States ceased to exist on 20 September 1870 when they were incorporated in the Kingdom of Italy, but the requirement that Jews live in the ghetto was only formally abolished by the Italian state in 1882. Though the Roman and other ghettos have now been abolished, the bull has never been revoked.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum

Portuguese Inquisition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Inquisition)...was formally established in Portugal in 1536 at the request of the King of Portugal, João III. Manuel I had asked for the installation of the Inquisition in 1515 to fulfill the commitment of marriage with Maria of Aragon, but it was only after his death that Pope Paul III acquiesced. In the period after the Medieval Inquisition, it was one of three different manifestations of the wider Christian Inquisition along with the Spanish Inquisition and Roman Inquisition.

The major target of the Portuguese Inquisition were those who had converted from Judaism to Catholicism, the Conversos , also known as New Christians or Marranos, who were suspected of secretly practising Judaism. Many of these were originally Spanish Jews, who had left Spain for Portugal. The number of victims is estimated around 40000.[1]

Spanish Inquisition

On November 1, 1478, Pope Sixtus IV published the Papal bull, Exigit Sinceras Devotionis Affectus, through which he gave the monarchs exclusive authority to name the inquisitors in their kingdoms...In 1482 the pope was still trying to maintain control over the Inquisition and to gain acceptance for his own attitude towards the New Christians, which was generally more moderate than that of the Inquisition and the local rulers.

In 1483, Jews were expelled from all of Andalusia. Though the pope wanted to crack down on abuses, Ferdinand pressured him to promulgate a new bull, threatening that he would otherwise separate the Inquisition from Church authority.[21][22] Sixtus did so on October 17, 1483, naming Tomás de Torquemada Inquisidor General of Aragón, Valencia and Catalonia. ...

Henry Kamen estimates that, of a population of approximately 80,000 Jews, about one half or 40,000 chose emigration.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada: The Pope went on to appoint a number of inquisitors for the Spanish Kingdoms in early 1482, including Torquemada. A year later he was named Grand Inquisitor of Spain, which he remained until his death in 1498. In the fifteen years under his direction, the Spanish Inquisition grew from the single tribunal at Seville to a network of two dozen 'Holy Offices'.[12] As Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada reorganized the Spanish Inquisition (originally based in Castile in 1478), establishing tribunals in Sevilla, Jaén, Córdoba, Ciudad Real and (later) Saragossa. His quest was to rid Spain of all heresy. The Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo called him "the hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the savior of his country, the honor of his order".

Under the edict of March 31, 1492, known as the Alhambra Decree, approximately 200,000 Jews left Spain. Following the Alhambra decree of 1492, approximately 50,000 Jews took baptism so as to remain in Spain; however, many of these—known as "Marranos" from Corinthians II, a contraction of anathema—were "crypto-jews" and secretly kept some of their Jewish traditions.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) In some parts of Spain towards the end of the 14th century, there was a wave of violent anti-Judaism, encouraged by the preaching of Ferrand Martinez, Archdeacon of Ecija. In the pogroms of June 1391 in Seville, hundreds of Jews were killed, and the synagogue was completely destroyed. The number of people killed was also high in other cities, such as Córdoba, Valencia and Barcelona.[32]

One of the consequences of these pogroms was the mass conversion of thousands of surviving Jews. Forced baptism was contrary to the law of the Catholic Church, and theoretically anybody who had been forcibly baptized could legally return to Judaism. However, this was very narrowly interpreted. Legal definitions of the time theoretically acknowledged that a forced baptism was not a valid sacrament, but confined this to cases where it was literally administered by physical force. A person who had consented to baptism under threat of death or serious injury was still regarded as a voluntary convert, and accordingly forbidden to revert to Judaism.[33] After the public violence, many of the converted "felt it safer to remain in their new religion."[34] Thus, after 1391, a new social group appeared and were referred to as conversos or New Christians.

King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile established the Spanish Inquisition in 1478. In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It operated in Spain and in all Spanish colonies and territories, which included the Canary Islands, the Spanish Netherlands, the Kingdom of Naples, and all Spanish possessions in North, Central, and South America. It primarily targeted forced converts from Islam (Moriscos, Conversos and secret Moors) and from Judaism (Conversos, Crypto-Jews and Marranos) — both groups still resided in Spain after the end of the Islamic control of Spain — who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion or of having fallen back into it.

In 1492 all Jews who had not converted were expelled from Spain, and those who remained became subject to the Inquisition

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html: While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began in Portugal in 1536: King Manuel I had initially asked Pope Leo X to begin an inquisition in 1515, but only after Leo's death in 1521 did Pope Paul III agree to Manuel's request. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.

Goa Inquisition From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition)

The Goa Inquisition was the office of the Portuguese Inquisition acting in Portuguese India, and in the rest of the Portuguese Empire in Asia. It was established in 1560, briefly suppressed from 1774–1778, and finally abolished in 1812.[1] Based on the records that survive, H. P. Salomon and I. S. D. Sassoon state that between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, some 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition. Of this number, it is known that 57 were sentenced to death and executed; another 64 were burned in effigy. Others were subjected to lesser punishments or penance, but the fate of many of those tried by the Inquisition is unknown.[2]

The Inquisition was established to punish apostate New Christians—Jews and Muslims who converted to Catholicism, as well as their descendants—who were now suspected of practising their ancestral religion in secret.[2]

If RC want to invoke Luther and the Jews regarding his latter exasperated negativity, then they need to see to your own house. And Rome has been too partial toward the Muslims as regards the Promised land.

Meanwhile, though RCs imagine we look to Luther as a pope, evangelicals are the strongest supporters of the Jews, not simply or because of how they fit into a rapture expectation.

[daniel1212]

Clinton’s interpretation of scripture, adultery, and fellatio was provided to the Arkansas State Troopers; it’s Sola scriptura.

Which is taken in isolation from its accompanying historical ethos, including what saving faith evidences under SS - which condemns Clinton's misuse - and the fact that those who hold most strongly to the authority of Scripture as the wholly inspired and accurate word of God are far more conservative than the overall fruit of Rome.

Meanwhile, the more heretical corporate errors are held by cults who effectively operate according to the basic Roman model of sola ecclesia, in which the church/org possesses ensured veracity and what they say is the supreme word,.

Thus Mormonism has its "Living Prophet" and additions to Scripture and exclusive claims to be the one true church, as with Rome, though relative few of which are in the only one true church which uniquely only 100% consists of believers.

[metmom]

How much of the Bible has the Catholic church infallibly interpreted?

How many verses and where can that be found?

And for the verses it has not infallibly interpreted, what then?

What’s the faithful Catholic to do? Ignore them? Interpret them themselves?

[daniel1212]

When the priest, bishops, etc give them communion and treat them as members in life and death, they are yours. You have no choice but to own them as the Catholic chooses to own them.

Indeed. Some even tell us that we are Catholic. But "protect the church at all costs to credulity" is what is evidenced by some.

[amihow]

Think you are forgetting the splinters in Protestantism caused by disagreements about Scripture. Among those splinters, there is no authority to which opposing pastors can go.

Your reliance on all writings and utterances by Popes as official teachings of the Church is where you make your mistake about Catholicism. Other than rare ex-cathedra teachings the Pope standing alone is not infallible. The Church teaching which has always been taught or is implicit therein and which has been held by the bishops throughout the world and ratified by the Pope is infallible. This type of infallibility is usually found in Ecumenical Councils.

Orthodox Catholics tend to understand this. They also know that infallibility attaches to faith and morals only.

You are correct about the scandal attatched to kissing Ted Kennedy as a saint. But millstones hang on Bishop’s necks who do that. Further, orthodox Catholics do not agree with such actions. Also long time tradition holds that the road to Hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops.

Anne Fremantle’s book “The Papal Encyclicals” has an interesting explanation of the significance of Papal prononcements.

[metmom]

Authority is given by the Holy Spirit to individual men in the gifts they receive.

Additonally, all believers have a level of spiritual authority given by being in Christ.

God did not create a top down heirarchal organization to lord it over people and dictate what they are to believe.

Is God going to give us a theology exam to get into heaven?

[RnMomof7]

If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the Lord thy God shall choose; And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment: (Deuteronomy 17:8,9)

Indeed that was an ecclesiastical gift give to the NT church, a gift that allows for excommunication from the church ...

But if for the sake of argument it referred to the forgiveness of sin ...no where does Christ tell the apostles that these gifts could be passed on ... Just one more note.. there was no such thing as "confession" to a priest until 1214... so the apostles must have "missed that

[RnMomof7]

The issue here is that Salvation has only posted half of Luther's quote. (And I have pointed that out to Salvation at least three times on other threads.)

Out of context quotes tend to be something that is a Catholic tradition ...We see it with scripture all the time...one line "proof" texts without taking into account the audience , the circumstances . the timeline or the context in the book

That leads to many errors and misunderstandings ...

[LurkingSince'98]

So when you reject some of what Luther taught, was it because you are ‘divinely inspired’ to reject some of what he, Luther, was ‘divinely inspired’ to reject??

So which human is responsible for arbiting whose ‘divine inspiration’ was more right than the other?

Such is the eternal failure of protestantism - you all get to choose what part of Luther you like and what part you reject.... and what parts of Scrpture mean what....and whether you are pre- or post- or whatever millenial you are.

Thats why thats nice.

For the Greater Glory of God

[RnMomof7]

((((((( crickets ))))))))

[RnMomof7]

If you have a problem with how the Church valued $3.69 billion in charitable giving - take it up with CARA.
This is the Charitable giving of just one of the Churches charitable arms, Catholic Charities.

Mormons are generous as well ... and my response to both is so what ?

[Resettozero]

Just The Crickets

[daniel1212]

Reason is contrary to faith”... “Reason is the whore of the Devil. It can only blaspheme and dishonour everything God has said or done”

Before you further impugn your own credibility, you need to start site-searching as here rather then simply pasting things rudimentary sourced which likely are obtained from such spurious sites as " Luther, Exposing the Myth" to see whether such is an actual quote or which ignores the context of the argument.

Which is another quote highlighting Luther's denigration of human "reason" (a similar quote was discussed here).

And in context, Luther argues that "Reason cannot comprehend the articles of faith, including the doctrine of the Sacrament of Baptism and the Lord's Supper." Swan concludes, "Once again, Luther actually is arguing for a doctrine Luther Exposing the Myth would adhere to. Such is what happens when a context is ignored. This type of miscitation shows that Romanists who put together web pages like Luther Exposing the Myth don't actually care about truth."

And a RC apologist says about reason:

Once he does so [enters the Roman church], he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason, like a lantern, at the door.

Therein he will learn many other truths that he never could have found out with reason alone, truths superior, but not contrary, to reason. These truths he can never repudiate without sinning against reason, first, because reason brought him to this pass where he must believe without the immediate help of reason.” — (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

Let's bask in the warm glow of Luther, freedom fighter as he speaks to the German princes:

And that of popes. In addition to the previous indictment of Rome of the manner of anti-judaism which you cite Luther for, here is what a SSPV site states (http://www.romancatholicism.org/popes-jews.html) If you want to invoke historical context, as if fitting, then do so as re Luther, including how lovable the character of the contemporary Jews was according to Caths. Which still does not excuse all Luther's attitude or counsel, or that of popes and prelates. While it remains that evangelicals are the foremost Christian supports of the Jews .

We have compiled quotes from Popes of the Roman Catholic Church wherein they taught:  That the Jews are cursed for murdering Jesus  That the Jews are cursed to be traitors like Judas  That the Jews are cursed to be unscrupulous moneygrubbers, like Judas  That the Jews are cursed to be outcasts like Cain, segregated from the rest of the society within which they live  That the Jews are cursed to be distinguished from everyone else by an identifying mark, like Cain  That the Jews are cursed to be outcasts, periodically ejected from the nations amongst whom they live, like Cain  That the Jews are cursed to be slaves like Esau  We also give a list of instances where Christians expelled the Jews in line with the teaching and exhortation of the Church.   The Jews are cursed for murdering Jesus  “And Pilate seeing that he prevailed nothing, but that rather a tumult was made; taking water washed his hands before the people, saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just man; look you to it.  Then cried all the people, and said, May his blood be on us, and on our children.” (Saint Matthew 27)  Pope Saint Peter I: “And when they had brought the apostles, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, saying, Did not we straitly command you that you should not teach in this name?  And, behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.  Then Peter and the other apostles answered, and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. […]  And we are witnesses of these things.” (Acts 5)  Pope Clement VIII: “The Bible itself says that the Jews are an accursed people.”  That the Jews are cursed to be traitors like Judas  “Judas Iscariot, which was the traitor.” (Saint Luke 6)  And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders, the scribes and the whole sanhedrin.  And they bound Jesus and led him away, and they betrayed [tradiderunt] him to Pilate.” (Saint Mark 15)  “The Jews who both killed the Lord JESUS, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are enemies to all men. [...]  To fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.” (I Thessalonians 2)  Pope Innocent III: “When Jews are admitted out of pity into familiar intercourse with Christians, they repay their hosts, according to the popular proverb, after the fashion of the rat hidden in the sack, or the snake in the bosom, or of the burning brand in one’s lap.”  Pope Gregory IX: “Ungrateful for favours and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)  Pope Stephen III: “With great sorrow and mortal anxiety, We have heard that the Jews have in a Christian land the same rights as Christians, that Christian men and women live under the same roof with these traitors and defile their souls day and night with blasphemies.” (Epistle to the Bishop of Norbonne)  Pope Innocent IV: “The wicked perfidy of the Jews - from whose hearts Our Saviour did not remove the veil because of their enormous crimes but caused them justly to continue in their blindness, commit acts of shame which engender astonishment in those who hear, and terror in those who discover it.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)  Pope Saint Gregory the Great: “Furthermore, I must tell you that I have been led to praise God the more for your work by what I have learnt from the report of my most beloved son Probinus the presbyter; namely that, your Excellency having issued a certain ordinance against the perfidy of the Jews, those to whom it related attempted to bend the rectitude of your mind by offering a sum of money; which your Excellency scorned, and, seeking to satisfy the judgment of Almighty God, preferred innocence to gold.” (Epistle to Rechared, King of the Visigoths)  Pope Saint Gregory VII: “We exhort your Royal Majesty [King Alfonse VI of Castile], not to further tolerate, that the Jews rule Christians and have power over them.  For to allow that Christians are subordinated to Jews and are delivered to their whims, means to oppress the Church of God, means to revile Christ himself.” (Regesta IX. 2)  Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council: “They shall not appear in public at all on the days of lamentation and on passion Sunday; because some of them on such days, as we have heard, do not blush to parade in very ornate dress and are not afraid to mock Christians who are presenting a memorial of the most sacred passion and are displaying signs of grief.  What we most strictly forbid however, is that they dare in any way to break out in derision of the Redeemer.”  Pope Gregory IX: “We order all our brother bishops absolutely to suppress the blasphemy of Jews in your dioceses, churches, and communities, so that they do not dare raise their necks, bent under eternal slavery, to revile the Redeemer.”  Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council: “We therefore renew in this canon, on account of the boldness of the offenders, what the Council of Toledo providently decreed in this matter: we forbid Jews to be appointed to public offices, since under cover of them they are very hostile to Christians.”  Pope Saint Gregory I: “It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day.  What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work.  For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.” (Epistles, Book XIII:1)  That the Jews are cursed to be unscrupulous moneygrubbers, like Judas  “Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, and said to them: What will you give me, and I will betray him unto you?  And they appointed him thirty pieces of silver.  And from thenceforth he sought opportunity to betray him.” (Saint Matthew 26)  Pope Saint Pius V: “Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers.” (Hebraeorum Gens)  Pope Benedict XIV: “Furthermore, by means of their particular practice of commerce, they amass a great store of money and then by an exorbitant rate of interest utterly destroy the wealth and inheritance of Christians.” (A Quo Primum)  Pope Clement VIII: “All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit.  They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor. […]  Their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live.”  Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council: “The more the Christian religion is restrained from usurious practices, so much the more does the perfidy of the Jews grow in these matters, so that within a short time they are exhausting the resources of the Christians.  Wishing therefore to see that Christians are not savagely oppressed by Jews in this matter, we ordain by this synodal decree that if Jews in the future, on any pretext, extort oppressive and excessive interest from Christians, then they are to be removed from contact with Christians until they have made adequate satisfaction for the immoderate burden.  Christians too, if need be, shall be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, without the possibility of an appeal, to abstain from commerce with them.  We enjoin upon princes, not to be hostile to Christians on this account, but rather to be zealous in restraining Jews from so great oppression.”  The Jews are cursed to be outcasts like Cain, segregated from the rest of the society within which they live  “And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and slew him. […] And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth. Now, therefore, cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand. When thou shalt till it, it shall not yield to thee its fruit: a fugitive and vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth.” (Genesis 4)  Pope Innocent III: “The Lord made Cain a wanderer and a fugitive over the earth, but set a mark upon him, making his head to shake, lest anyone finding him should slay him.  Thus the Jews, against whom the blood of Christ calls out, although they ought not to be wiped out, nevertheless, as wanderers they must remain upon the earth until their faces are filled with shame and they seek the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Epistle to the Count of Nevers)  Pope Saint Sylvester I at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea: “Concerning the prohibition of usury and base gain by the clergy; and concerning the prohibition against conversing or eating with the Jews.  No priest shall set money out at interest or take unfair profit or be friendly or sociable with Jews; nor should anyone take food or drink with the Jews; for if this was decreed by the holy apostles, it is incumbent upon the faithful to obey their command; and the synod shall excommunicate any one who does not comply with this order.”  Pope Eugene IV: “We decree and order that from now on, and for all time, Christians shall not eat or drink with the Jews, nor admit them to feasts, nor cohabit with them, nor bathe with them. […]  They cannot live among Christians, but in a certain street, separated and segregated from Christians, and outside which they cannot under any pretext have houses.”  Pope Alexander III: “Our ways of life and those of the Jews are utterly different, and Jews will easily pervert the souls of simple folk to their superstition and unbelief if such folk are living in continual and intimate intercourse with them.” (Ad Haec)  That the Jews are cursed to be distinguished from everyone else by an identifying mark, like Cain  “And the Lord set a mark upon Cain.” (Genesis 4)  Pope Martin V: “However, we received a short time ago through credible reports knowledge to our great alarm, that various Jews of both sexes in Cafas and other cities, lands and places overseas, which fall under the jurisdiction of Christians, are of obstinate mind and, in order to conceal swindling and wickedness, wear no special sign on their clothing, so that they are not recognisable as Jews.  They are not ashamed to give themselves out as Christians before many Christians of both sexes of these cities, districts and places mentioned, who could not in fact identify them, and consequently commit shameful things and crimes.” (Sedes Apostolica)  Pope Eugene IV: “We decree and order that from now on, and for all time […] All and every single Jew, of whatever sex and age, must everywhere wear the distinctive dress and known marks by which they can be evidently distinguished from Christians.”  Pope Saint Pius V: “In order to make an end of all doubt concerning the colour of the cap and the sign of the women, we declare that the colour must be yellow.” (Romanus Pontifex)  That the Jews are cursed to be outcasts, periodically ejected from the nations amongst whom they live, like Cain  “A fugitive and vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth.” (Genesis 4)  Pope Saint Pius V: “With full understanding and in exercising of the apostolic powers, we withdraw from the Jews and their rule (and recognize no right or claim) all properties, which the Jews have in their possession in this city Rome or other places of our domain of rule.”  (Cum Nos Super)  Pope Paul IV: “It is too absurd and pointless that the Jews, whom their own guilt condemns to slavery, under the pretence that Christian piety suffers and tolerates their coexistence, pay back [with wickedness] the mercy received from Christians.” (Cum Nimis Absurdum)  Pope Leo VII: “Let the Gospel be preached unto them and, if they remain obstinate, let them be expelled.”  Pope Adrian I at the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicea: “Since certain, erring in the superstitions of the Hebrews, have thought to mock at Christ our God, and feigning to be converted to the religion of Christ do deny him, and in private and secretly keep the Sabbath and observe other Jewish customs, we decree that such persons be not received to communion, nor to prayers, nor into the Church; but let them be openly Hebrew according to their religion, and let them not bring their children to baptism, nor purchase or possess a slave.”  Pope Innocent IV: “We who long with all our hearts for the salvation of souls, grant you full authority by these present letters to banish the Jews, either in your own person or through the agency of others, especially since, as we have been informed, they do not abide by the regulations drawn up for them by this Holy See.” (To the King of France)  Pope Saint Pius V: “The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death.  Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease.  Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future.  We have carefully investigated how this revolting sect abuses the name of Christ and how harmful they are to those whose life is threatened by their deceit.  On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice - in all towns, districts, and places - must depart these regions. After this time limit shall all at the present or in the future, who dwell or wander into that city or other already mentioned, be affected, their property confiscated and handed over to the Siscus, and they shall becomes slaves of the Roman Church, live in perpetual servitude and the Roman Church shall have the same rights over them as the remaining [worldly] lords over slaves and property.” (Hebraeorum Gens)  Christians agreed with the Church and the Jews were expelled in the following instances.    1.  250: Carthage;   2.  415: Alexandria;   3.  554: Diocese of Clement (France);   4.  561: Diocese of Uzzes (France);   5.  612: Visigoth Spain;   6.  642: Visigoth Empire;   7.  855: Italy;   8.  876: Sens;   9. 1012: Mayence;  10. 1181: France;  11. 1290: England;  12. 1306: France;  13. 1348: Switzerland;  14. 1349: Hielbronn (Germany);  15. 1349: Hungary;  16. 1388: Strasbourg;  17. 1394: Germany;  18. 1394: France;  19. 1422: Austria;  20. 1424: Fribourg & Zurich;  21. 1426: Cologne;  22. 1432: Savory;  23. 1438: Mainz;  24. 1439: Augsburg;  25. 1446: Bavaria;  26. 1453: Franconis;  27. 1453: Breslau;  28. 1454: Wurzburg;  29. 1485: Vincenza (Italy);  30. 1492: Spain;  31. 1495: Lithuania;  32. 1497: Portugal;  33. 1499: Germany;  34. 1514: Strasbourg;  35. 1519: Regensburg;  36. 1540: Naples;  37. 1542: Bohemia;  38. 1550: Genoa;  39. 1551: Bavaria;  40. 1555: Pesaro;  41. 1559: Austria;  42. 1561: Prague;  43. 1567: Wurzburg;  44. 1569: Papal States;  45. 1571: Brandenburg;  46. 1582: Netherlands;  47. 1593: Brandenburg, Austria;  48. 1597: Cremona, Pavia & Lodi;  49. 1614: Frankfort;  50. 1615: Worms;  51. 1619: Kiev;  52. 1649: Ukraine;  53. 1654: Little Russia;  54. 1656: Lithuania;  55. 1669: Oran (North Africa);  56. 1670: Vienna;  57. 1712: Sandomir;  58. 1727: Russia;  59. 1738: Wurtemburg;  60. 1740: Little Russia;  61. 1744: Bohemia;  62. 1744: Livonia;  63. 1745: Moravia;  64. 1753: Kovad (Lithuania);  65. 1761: Bordeaux;  66. 1772: Jews deported to the Pale of Settlement (Russia);  67. 1775: Warsaw;  68. 1789: Alace;  69. 1804: Villages in Russia;  70. 1808: Villages & Countrysides (Russia);  71. 1815: Lubeck & Bremen;  72. 1815: Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria;  73. 1820: Bremes;  74. 1843: Russian Border, Austria & Prussia;  75. 1862: Area in the U. S. under Grant's Jurisdiction;  76. 1866: Galatz, Romania;  77. 1919: Bavaria (foreign born Jews);  78. 1938-45: Nazi Controlled Areas;  79. 1948: Arab Countries.   That the Jews are cursed to be slaves like Esau  “And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy womb; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Isaac].” (Genesis 25)  “But he [Esau] who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he [Isaac] of the free woman, was by promise. Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.” (Galatians 4)  Pope Innocent III: “The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.” (To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris)  Pope Innocent IV: “And that you [King Saint Louis IX] order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondwoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves.  So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)  Pope Saint Martin I: “If anyone shall teach a slave, under pretext of piety, to despise his master and to run away from his service, and not to serve his own master with good-will and all honour, let him be anathema.”  Pope Benedict XIV: “It is fitting for Jews to serve Christians, but not for Christians to serve Jews.  On the contrary, the Jews, as slaves rejected by that Saviour Whose death they wickedly contrived, should recognize themselves in fact and in creed the slaves of those whom the death of Christ has set free, even as it has rendered them bondmen.”  (Quoting Pope Innocent III, “Etsi Judaeos”)  Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt.  See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)  Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Ecumenical Council: “We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians.” (Canon 26)

Pope St. Pius V expelled all Jews from the papal realms

 

[daniel1212]

By Catholic reasoning, then if they are having sex knowing that no procreation is going to happen that is contributing to the moral collapse of our culture and society.

Someone forgot to tell the Holy Spirit of the sole purpose of sexual activity, or the only justifying reason for it:

Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? (Proverbs 5:18-20)

How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. (Song of Solomon 7:1-3)

This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. (Song of Solomon 7:7-10)

The Scripture excel in euphemisms, but i do no think the married lovers are speaking of gardening in SoS, nor did they treat marital union as an unclean thing as Jerome, or their relations as necessarily involving sinful lust as Augustine, even if new imputed to the elect.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[BlueDragon]

Well, dan my man, would you be feeling just bit whipsawed by the comments (and implications) shown contrasted between

comment #346

And

#351

?

Ok, it's not the greatest contrast available, or that I have seen on these pages (coming from FRomans) but it sort-a kind-of reminds me of http://www.romancatholicism.org/feeney-condemnations.html#a2 wherein Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani and A. Ottaviani, Assessor, had to tie themselves in virtual pretzel knots when condemning Feeney (even as they were affirming Feeney's positions although they tried to say they were not by including little qualifiers here and there which betray how the Church of Rome seeks to have certain things two ways at once -- as long as they da' boss.)

[BlueDragon]

Inquisition

The Inquistion, what a show
The Inquistion, here we go

♪ We know you're wishing

That we'd go away ♫

But the Inquistion's here and it's here to stay

[ealgeone]

Man that’s good stuff. Guess the catholics forgot who the Jews are.