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To: FourtySeven; Mrs. Don-o; verga
>Catholics think it's ok because Mary's name is in this "devotion".<

Excise me for saying so but this is just wrong. We don't beleive all "devotions" are good, just because they are devotions. Obviously, if one "devotes" oneself to the love of money, or to Satan (as you pointed out), that's wrong, it's idolatry. Idolatry is putting anything or any-one over God, before Him.

So how is pledging one's entire self to Mary, giving yourself entirely to you.....without reserve any different than giving yourself entirely to Satan??

The catholic is considering themselves to be her property and possession. How is this any different than if you pledged your life to Satan and asked him to keep you as his possession??

the "devotion" in question:

>My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.<

This is not what a devotion to Mary (or any saint) is though; such devotions have at their root, as I pointed out, a desire for Christ to see Christ face to face. A love of Christ actually OVER the Saint in question.

I understand the difficulty catholics will have with this. You've been brought up since kids(?) being taught this is right. And now you are being asked to evaluate the real meaning of "devotion" to Mary when our real devotion should be to Christ and Christ alone.

Paul considered himself to be "in Christ". He never once hinted at being "in mary" or being devoted to her. None of the Apostles did.

855 posted on 04/14/2015 10:57:40 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; FourtySeven; Mrs. Don-o; verga
I understand the difficulty catholics will have with this. You've been brought up since kids(?) being taught this is right. And now you are being asked to evaluate the real meaning of "devotion" to Mary when our real devotion should be to Christ and Christ alone.

No that isn't patronizing at ALL...

Have you never expressed your love for someone in a way that an onlooker might see as over the top or excessive? I remember dropping to my knees and saying "I can't live without you" to my wife. That might have been a little much but it's certainly the way I felt, and still feel 21 years later. Devotions aren't theology, they're love letters.

858 posted on 04/14/2015 11:13:45 AM PDT by Legatus (I think, therefore you're out of your mind)
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To: ealgeone; FourtySeven; verga
"Paul considered himself to be "in Christ". He never once hinted at being "in mary" or being devoted to her. None of the Apostles did."

Well, consider this: When Christ was crucified, where was the Church? For the most part, the "Church" -- all of Jesus' select men, His right-hand men ---- had high-tailed it and headed for the tall grass. Everyone had betrayed, denied, or abandoned Jesus in His hour of need.

Th tiny remnant--- the faithful Church --- consisted of those at the foot of the Cross.

And how is this moment of attachment and fidelity pictured in the Gospel of John?

(John 19:26-28) When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

In that moment, Jesus gave His mother a son; and gave His Church a mother.

This is reiterated, in a sense, at Pentecost, when the Eleven and Mary are in the Upper Room and receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had overshadowed Mary thirty-three years before, and empowered her to bring Christ "the Word made Flesh" into the world; that same Holy Spirit was now overshadowing not just Mary, but this little Church with Mary in their midst --- empowering them to carry forth Christ into the whole world --- through the power of that same Spirit. Annunciation multiplied!

The mothering relationship is reiterated very strongly in Revelation 12, when the Lady of the Sign, the Great Sign in the Heavens, is revealed to be none other than the Mother of the Savior (v.5) and the Mother of the Church (v.17):

"Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus."

So there's all the faithful described as being "the rest of her (Mary's) offspring: those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus." She, Mary, the Lady of the Sign, is the very image of the faithful Church: Lady Ecclesia.

As early as the end of the first century (before the death of St.John) and into the first half of the second century, Mary is depicted in frescos in the Roman catacombs both with and without her divine Son. Mary is depicted as a model of virginity with her Son; at the Annunciation; at the adoration of the Magi; and as the orans, the "praying one," the woman of prayer.

A very significant fresco in the catacombs of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between St. Peter and St. Paul with her arms outstretched to both. This fresco reflects, in the language of Christian frescoes, the earliest symbol of Mary as "Mother of the Church." Whenever St. Peter and St. Paul are shown together, it is symbolic of the one Church of Christ, a Church of authority and evangelization, a Church for both Jew and Gentile. Mary's prominent position between Sts. Peter and Paul illustrates the recognition of her maternal role in the midst of the Apostolic Church.

868 posted on 04/14/2015 12:09:59 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us)
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