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Is the church a pillar & pedestal of truth?
triablogue ^ | September 08, 2008 | Steve

Posted on 03/25/2015 2:25:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Is the church a pillar & pedestal of truth?

I’ve discussed this verse (1 Tim 3:15) on more than one occasion, but since Catholics keep citing it as a prooftext for Catholicism, I have to correct them more than once.

To some extent I’ll repeat myself since they repeat themselves, but I’m also going to expand on some points.

Catholics always quote this out of context. But what questions should we ask ourselves when we approach this verse?

1. How should we render the Greek phrase? The Greek construction is anarthrous. There is no definite article. Therefore, there’s no reason to automatically translate the phrase as “the Church of God.”

2. Even if, for the sake of argument, we use a definite article, notice what the verse doesn’t say. It doesn’t say, “the Church of Rome is a pillar and pedestal of truth.”

3. So what church is Paul talking about? What’s the destination of the letter? The church of Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3).

4. So Paul is talking about a local church, and the referent is the church of Ephesus.

5. Why did Paul write 1 Timothy in the first place? What occasioned this letter?

The church of Ephesus had been infiltrated by false prophets. Paul sent Timothy to function as a troubleshooter and letter courier.

Now, think about that for a moment. Is a local church that’s been infiltrated by false teachers a “pillar and pedestal” of truth? Would such a church be a source of false teaching rather than sound doctrine?

Why did Paul write them in the first place? Why did he leave Timothy behind? To combat false teachers in the church of Ephesus.

6. And this is not the only example by any means. Was the church of Corinth a “pillar and pedestal” of truth? No, it was a source of false teaching. He had to write to correct their false teaching.

Were the churches of Galatia pillars of truth? No, they were teetering on the brink of apostasy. What about the church of Colossae? No, he wrote that church to combat the Colossian heresy. What about the church of Thessalonica? No, he wrote that church to combat the Hymenaean heresy.

And it isn’t limited to Paul. Were all seven churches of Asia Minor (Rev 2-3) pillars of truth? No. What about the Christian communities to which Peter addressed 2 Peter and Jude addressed his epistle? No. What about the destination of 1 John and the letter of Hebrews? No and no.

Because Catholics fall back on traditional prooftexting, and think in abstract rather than historical terms, they don’t stop to consider the concrete circumstances of the NT churches.

7. Catholics only quote 1 Tim 3:15b. But what’s the immediate context of that clause? 1 Tim 3:14-15a.

Does Paul say that in his absence, the church of Ephesus can get along just fine without him since the church is a pillar and foundation of truth? That Ephesian Christians can learn everything they need to learn from the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church?

No, he says nothing of the kind. To the contrary, he is writing to them so that they will know how to conduct themselves in church. They aren’t getting this from the church. They are getting this from him. From his teaching to the church (e.g. the household code in 1 Tim 2:1-3:13).

He is writing them because he can’t teach them in person—at the moment. But in any case, their source of sound doctrine comes from him. Not from the church, as a pillar and pedestal of truth.

In context, 1 Tim 3:15 is the very antithesis of a prooftext for ecclesiastical authority.


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: apologetic; church; truth; uphold
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To: Mark17

Yeah, I think that is the best approach, well put.


21 posted on 03/25/2015 4:15:00 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ealgeone
THIS!!!!!!!

Elementary my dear Watson, elementary.

:-)

22 posted on 03/25/2015 4:17:14 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. O glorious dawning)
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To: RnMomof7; sagar; LurkingSince'98

“The Church” is the body of Christ. It is made up of those who are true believers in Jesus Christ, who is the head (the only head, the Church doesn’t have two heads) of the Church, which is his body. It isn’t a man made institution. It isn’t centered around a denomination of any kind. It isn’t a building. It is centered around Christ and it is empowered by the Holy Spirit. Where two or more are gathered in Jesus Name there He is, in the midst of them. That’s all it takes is two or more gathered in His name to be considered a called out Church. As long as those two are gathered together to worship and learn of Him then His Spirit will be there in a special way.

As the group grows and there is more need for order then elders and a pastor will be appointed and set apart in a special capacity. The pastor will seek God and feed the little flock as a shepherd does. His primary job in life will be to seek God and study the Scriptures, directing the flock from a pure heart.

Beyond this The Apostles were still alive during Bible times. The Apostles were directly called by Jesus Christ. They knew Him and were commissioned by Him personally. They were continued to hear His voice and be instructed by The Holy Spirit. Even Paul on the road to Damascus was personally picked and commissioned by Christ as a leader of the early Church. He heard directly from The Holy Spirit. No leader in The Catholic Church qualifies in these regards. They haven’t heard God speaking to them in a personal way that what He was saying was hearable and completely understandable. They haven’t been picked by Jesus Christ with His audible voice. They function like the rest in the church by trying to do their best with what God has revealed to us through Scripture. Any thing they add onto Scripture hasn’t come from the mouth of God, but their traditions and interpretations which often even contradict Holy Scripture. Scripture doesn’t contradict. They are wrong. They haven’t any special calling to be above the rest of us in the Church. If they contradict Scripture we shouldn’t follow them no matter who they tell us they are. No one will stand before God and be able to say but my Church told me this. Each person stands before God alone and each is responsible to know Him and truth individually. Your Church will not matter.


23 posted on 03/25/2015 4:20:40 PM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: RnMomof7

so, after your author is done with it, the verse is essentially meaningless - extra fluff in the Bible that you guys can dismiss out of hand. Here I thought that “all scripture was God-breathed and useful for instruction in righteousness” ... guess that’s not really true, at least according to you guys.


24 posted on 03/25/2015 4:23:56 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Boogieman; Mark17
I went to the Greek and the wording is this way.

"the assembly of God the living the pillar and base of the truth"

We can then look at Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Building on that foundation would be the pillars or the parts that hold up. It would difficult to discount either view imo.

25 posted on 03/25/2015 4:34:55 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RnMomof7
4. So Paul is talking about a local church, and the referent is the church of Ephesus.

This is not one his better apologetics. Paul most certainly is not referring to the local church, any more than when he said the church was married to Christ in Eph. 5:25, or how he wasted the church of God in Gal. 1:13, but as is usually the case when not specifying a particular church, 1Tim. 1:15 (in the Greek) simply refers to the corporate house of God, the church of the living God being the support of the Truth. Which both "stulos" and "hedraiōma" basically denote, the latter perhaps as foundation, but it is unseen in the LXX or Hellenistic Jewish or secular Greek. And i read that a Gk. edition of Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses also paraphrased it as "pillar and support."

, The church is the body of Christ, the household of faith (cf. Gal. 6:10; 1Pt. 4:17) in which every part works together to edify, evangelize, contend for the Truth, as evangelicals have historically been characterized for doing. (Romans 9:4-5) Yet the visible church is an admixture of tares and wheat.

While there is some ambiguity in this text, and thus RCs compel it to mean what they long to see - that the church must be the infallible standard for Truth above Scripture - it is easy to see that that it what it does not say,

For the church itself established its Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) not the premise of perpetual ensured magisterial infallibility, as per Rome.

And Scripturally an infallible magisterium has never been essential to provide and preserve Truth and faith, and what is said of Israel is what Rome claims for herself: "...because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers..."

Moreover, God has been progressively revealing Truth before the church, and though i have not see Him providing new public doctrinal revelation now, yet He illuminates more from Scripture, revealing Him and His Truth, and His revelation to us will be added to when He returns. (1Jn. 3:2)

In addition, all those who are born again have "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," just as there is "one body, and one Spirit," and "one God and Father of all" as it says in context, as all in the body of Christ have been born again by that one Spirit, by the one basic faith in the Lord of the one gospel, and thus have been baptized into that one body, (1Co. 12:13) and are to be water baptized in identification with their Lord.

26 posted on 03/25/2015 5:11:08 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Mad Dawg; RnMomof7; Tao Yin
Catholic teaching IN NO WAY says you should accept anything you hear in church. We argue with our priests and with our bishops. We write letters to Rome complaining about false teaching in our local pulpits or in our dioceses.

True, but they key word is "anything," for i think what it meant is "Should we just accept anything we hear in church as the truth without examining it for Scriptural conformity and warrant?"

And the difference is that while our basis for veracity must rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, a faithful RC is not to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the ensured magisterial veracity of Rome by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth.

Also, understand that are re 1Tim. 3:15, we are dealing with the interpretation of RC apologists, to which the author the blog is responding to.

In which, faced with Scriptural argumentation to the contrary of Rome, then besides telling us Rome gave us the Bible, and thus we are to follow her (which logic has an contrary conclusion), the typical recourse is to quote 1Tim. 3:15 as if settling the matter, the premise being that this text means that Rome settles the question of what the Truth is, and thus disallows the private interpretation of Scripture by us to the contrary of Rome. I emphasize that much weight is laid upon this text by RCs.

Yet that text does not provide what RCs extrapolate from it in their private interpretation (unless Rome has officially settled that text), while RCs themselves freely engage in interpretation of Scripture, and of Rome.

27 posted on 03/25/2015 5:47:30 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for posting another great thread.

It seems to me we don't have enough faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict us in our sins when we err. We see Presbyterian churches falling into heresy and the membership is either trying to withdraw their churches from the organization, or the Born Again members are leaving to find Christian assemblies.

We also have the added advantage of having the God Breathed completed Scriptures as our rule of faith.

28 posted on 03/25/2015 6:29:17 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: daniel1212

I just hope we both get to spend some time together in heaven. I REALLY profit from your contributions to these exchanges.


29 posted on 03/25/2015 6:35:06 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Mad Dawg
You can really get yourself in trouble with that sentiment. But my feeling is that all come to Christ as lost contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save them on His blood-expense and holiness - not their own or the church or Mary's, or trusting in infant sprinkling or purgatory - and then live for Him, to the glory of God.

What a privilege to be able to serve the Lord Christ and thus have some works to lay at His feet, to show gratitude to the great God and Savior who procured so great salvation at so great a cost.

30 posted on 03/25/2015 7:22:16 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: RnMomof7

Thanks for the ping!

This may have been addressed by another poster...
For theological purposes,
The ‘truth’ is the Scriptures, inspired by God.
The ‘church’ is the regenerate/born again people.
(”Visible” church is the congregation ;the “invisible” church is the regenerate members).


31 posted on 03/28/2015 8:12:09 AM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57, returning after lurking since 2000)
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To: WildHighlander57

We strongly agree


32 posted on 03/28/2015 8:16:11 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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