Posted on 03/18/2015 6:21:18 AM PDT by RnMomof7
So many rabbit holes: so little time.
MAny millions have died between Jesus' resurrection and today.
NONE of these last things to be fulfilled have ANY bearing on their salvation.
Oh?
I thought that He corrected folks USING Scripture.
That passage was addressing Israel.
>>If we are in adversity to his laws, we are not righteous.<<
The righteousness of true believers does not come from following laws.
>>Read 1John until it sinks in.<<
Do you ever sin?
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
If you do and attribute your righteousness to following the law I would suggest you have no idea what 1 John is talking about.
You sure are going through a lot of contortions to avoid answering the question. I’ll just understand you can’t or won’t.
HMMMmmm...
I'm from an agnostic, Baptist, Holiness/Wesleyan background, and I've NEVER heard that Catholics are going to hell from ANY of them.
Do you have some official DOCTRINE that you'd like to link to that shows this assertion?
Or holiness and "prophecy" from a church that gives us sodomite priests, and pedophiles...
I know you can do it!
Right there at the bottom of the link, under “According to ... :Salvation is..”
Previously, the scripture you referred to was Isiah. Now, you’re highlighting “‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” in Acts.
Is there some NT - not OT - scripture that is being referred to in your Acts post?
Just Acts...
Ya want chapter 15?
You didn’t have to double down on dancing and weaving. I understood from your last post you couldn’t or wouldn’t answer the question.
I just proved beyond a shadow of ANY doubt that clerical marriage is permissible-—directly from St. Paul.
That is actually not true. Here in my diocese there is a Priest who is married with 3 kids. How did that happen? He was a Presbyterian priest and changed religions to Catholicism. The Bishop recognized his Priesthood. He is a great and inspirational speaker and gives a wonderful homilies.
Rather, we have seen what RCs must resort to in attempting to provide some semblance of actual Scriptural teaching for such things as these .
Go ahead and try with me.
"It is finished." Has it ever occurred to you that Christ was speaking of the establishment of the New Covenant with these words?
So is this the infallible definition of Rome? If not then you are simply engaging in your own private interpretation along with others.
And while your are partly correct, you fail to even provide one text to support your interpretation. Do you even know the verse that most clearly establishes that Christ's death established the New Covenant?
Yet "If is finished" primarily refers to the perfect atonement being made, which was the "cup" that the Lord had to drink, but which believers have redemption thru His sinless shed blood. (Col 1:14)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)
Without that there would be no church.
You misrepresent Church teaching to condemn the Church. The Mass isn't a sin offering.
Rather, you mean you censure a Prot for teach what Catholics teach, that,
As defined by the Council of Trent, the Sacrifice of the Mass is offered, "For sins, for punishment for sins, and for reparation." - http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Mass/Mass_003.htm
1) The Mass is Calvary continued. 2) Every Mass is worth as much as the Sacrifice of Our Lord's Life,suffering and death. 3) Holy Mass is the most powerful atonement for your sins. 4) At the hour of death the Masses you have heard will be your greatestconsolation. 5) Every Mass will go with you to Judgement and plead for pardon. - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/mgraces.htm
From the time of the Apostolic Fathers to the present, the Church has understood the Mass to be nothing other than the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary, made present to us under the appearances of bread and wine..The Mass is the true and perfect sacrifice that makes possible, fulfills and inspires all sacrifices of love. - https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9216
That the mass is indeed a veritable sacrifice of atonement, offered in expiation of the sins of the people, is shown by the action of the priest... - -Cochem's Explanation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass> Holy Mass is the Most Powerful Sin-Offering by Martin (von Cochem), p. 187
What is the Measure of the Efficacy of the Mass as a Sin offering or a Sacrifice of Propitiation? It is two-fold : (a) For the remission of the guilt of sin...(a) For the remission of the temporal punishment due for forgiven sins. - The Mass and Vestments of the Catholic Church: Liturgical, Doctrinal ... by John Walsh, p. 134
"The Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a 'true and proper sacrifice,'" - The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: "Sacrifice of the Mass"
"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice," (CCC, 1367).
The Church nullifies nothing. She explains and illuminates. .. Matt 12:32 speaks of the forgiveness of sins in this life and the next. No one may enter Heaven stained.
It does indeed like as the Pharisees did, but supplanting one thing with another. Here, while Scripture teaches that the
believer is already washed, justified and sanctified by faith, which is counted for holiness by God, who alone is wholly holy; (1Cor. 6:11; Rm. 3:35 - 5:1; Rv. 15:4)
and is accepted in the Beloved, and made to sit together with Christ in heaven; (Eph. 1:6; 2:6)
whence they look for the next transformative event, that of the Lord's coming and thus the resurrection and the changing of this vile body into conformity with Christ at that time; (Phil. 3:20,21; 1Jn. 3:2)
and with the only suffering then being the loss of rewards (and the Lord's disapproval) at the judgment seat of Christ, at His return, but the believers is saved despite this loss, not because of it. (1Cor. 3:8ff)
And thus wherever Scripture speaks clearly about the believers next life, it only places the believer (his spirit) with the Lord at death (awaiting the resurrection) or at His coming;
In contrast, Rome makes one's own holiness the formal basis for justification (and even imagines that sprinkling water on an infant - who cannot and need not obey the commanded requirements for baptism - effects the holiness needed to be with God, and thus most all RCs must end up suffering postmortem "purifying torments" in RC (EOs tend to differ) purgatory.
Thus while with more grace is provided, as under like the Law, one is justified by his works, by which atones for sins and is is accounted to have "fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)
All of which is in contrast to holiness being a necessary fruit of saving faith, so that those which manifest this are the ones judged to be saved, and fit to be rewarded under grace, (Mt. 25:31-40; Heb. 6:9,10; 10:35; Rv. 3:4) but their faith is counted for the righteousness needed to see God, like as like Abraham was, even though he already was relatively righteous. (Gn. 15:6; Rm. 4:1-7)
Being reconciled to God is difficult for Catholics to comprehend, for they have been taught the only way to made peace with God is through a life long journey of works--receiving the sacraments, going to Mass and doing penance.
This is a complete straw man argument against the Church. Our "peace" is made with God through Baptism into His Holy Family. The rest is our Family life in His Church on our journey home.
Once again it is you who are misrepresenting RC faith, as in reality, the journey home (as they tell us) denies knowing one has eternal life now, or at least requires taking part in Rome's magical but sterile rituals, and almost always then requires in the life beyond fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)
Talk about strawmen. Outside of praying for the dead or to departed saints, which is not of Scripture, Reformers and the Puritans would reprove thee.
In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,
a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, [”A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way”, http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]
With the Puritans this could go an extreme opposite that of the antinomians. An account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period notes,
“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”
More .
There is no such thing as a Presbyterian priest.
And you never will. For presbuteros (elders) were never titled “hiereus” (= priest, from "preost"), which is only used for Jewish and pagan priests which have a unique sacerdotal function as their primary role, unlike NT presbuteros.
And while the binding and loosing aspect that pertains to forgiveness (which can be related to healing) - that of God removing chastisement due to intercession of others, as Christ showed, (Mk. 2:5-11; Jn. 5:8ff) - does apply primarily to the elders, yet what Jn. 5:16-18 exhorts is believers also confessing faults to other believers and praying for such that they may be healed.
For while the judicial function of binding and loosing in Mt,. 18 begins with the magisterium, the spiritual power of binding and loosing can be had by any righteous laity of fervent prayer:
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:18-19)
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. (James 5:16-18)
James is teaching that any righteous man can be like Elias who bound the heavens from raining for 3.5 years, and then loosed them again. And which has application in other areas (not "name is claim it.")
Moreover, Mt. 18:15-17 specifically deals with judgments in personal matters. And which power to bind or loose was not new, but was based upon the means of judgment seen in the OT. In Dt. 17, if there arose a matter too hard for them in judgment, "between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within their gates," then it was brought before the Levitical magisterial authority, whose judgment was binding to one, and loosing to the other.
According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. (Deuteronomy 17:11)
The Lord also enjoined conditional obedience to the Scribes and Pharisees, (Mt. 23:2) and who claimed the power of dissolving vows, etc. But not as being the supreme infallible standard, thus the Lord reproved their unScriptural judgments by Scripture. (Mk. 7:2-16
Paul with the church also exercised this binding power in 1Cor. 5 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)" (1 Corinthians 5:5)
And fathers and husbands are given some binding and loosing power in regards to daughters and wives respectively. (Num 30:3-7)
Even valid civil authorities have a power to bind and loose, physically. (Rm. 13:1-7) .
Yet even though disobedience to the OT magisterium could a capital offence, yet it was not infallible, which Rome presumed to claim she is, nor was the novel idea of perpetual magisterial infallibility ever promised or seen or necessary for discernment and preservation of faith.
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