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To: CynicalBear

After finishing with warning the seven churches in chapter 3 after which they are not seen again, chapter 4 starts with ““Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” After what? After the faithful believers are gone from the earth.


I think that is a huge leap. “After this”, to me, means “after the warning.” The warning also implies time to take heed of the warning. Why would you give someone a warning about their current activity, complete with telling them to repent, etc., and then immediately act on their condition at the warning. It really makes no sense. And since the bible does not explicitly SAY that He acted on it between the end of 3 and the beginning of 4, I can find no reason to speculate on such an event.

And just because something is not “seen immediately” in following verses does not mean it is not there. It can (and usually does) mean the writer has moved on to a different topic. Unless, of course, the writer explicitly SAYS the thing is not there, which it doesn’t.

These are the original arguments used when I first became a Christian in 1981 to “prove” to me a pre-trib rapture. It was taught at length at my church and Sunday school. I then studied it myself a few years later. It drastically changed my position on the subject but, even more, it made me realize that none of us really know. We only speculate, and often on ridiculously scant information.

We all do it. It’s just easier for me to see when someone else does it than when I do it. ;-)


72 posted on 03/13/2015 9:55:44 AM PDT by cuban leaf (The US will not survive the obama presidency. The world may not either.)
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To: cuban leaf
>>Why would you give someone a warning about their current activity, complete with telling them to repent, etc., and then immediately act on their condition at the warning.<<

Where does it say "immediately"? I can find no time frame given between chapter three and chapter four. If you do would you please point it out to me?

>>And since the bible does not explicitly SAY that He acted on it between the end of 3 and the beginning of 4, I can find no reason to speculate on such an event.<<

The churches had already been told how those who were faithful and true would "escape the wrath to come". Why would John have to repeat it? The seven churches were simply being warned to get back to their "first love". They knew the consequences.

>>And just because something is not “seen immediately” in following verses does not mean it is not there.<<

Jesus told the church in Philadelphia towards the end of chapter 3.

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

The rapture of the faithful must happen before the seven year tribulation.

85 posted on 03/13/2015 11:26:36 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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