Posted on 03/07/2015 12:04:48 PM PST by Colofornian
Are you trying to lesson the meaning of Holy? It goes a little deeper then what you seem to be trying to imply.
Greek - ἅγιά - hagios - 40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world." [http://biblehub.com/greek/40.htm]
Also used here;
Acts 7:33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.
And here:
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
And here:
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Try to diminish the significance if you want but I will not.
That’s the most correct answer and the one that’s consistent with both the Old and New Testaments. Well done.
Exactly. Be baptized -- which the NT describes as a purely passive act that happens to us. (I can perhaps go into this in more detail on another post)
Note that the Scriptures don't say, "Repent and make 'a decision for Christ,' now do they?
Note that the Scriptures don't say "Go and make disciples of all nations" by having them make "decisions for Christ" -- now do they>
Instead what does Jesus say?
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28)
The Greek there for "nations" is panta ta ethne -- "ethne" is where we get the word "ethnic" from..So Jesus isn't so much talking about all political-boundary nations -- but all ethnic groups. (And last time I looked, kids under age 8 were part of "all ethnic groups).
Or do you claim that Jesus' Great Commission there in Matthew 28:18-20 doesn't apply to kids under 8 -- or kids under a certain age group?
As for repentance...
| Focus of passage | Jesus in Luke | Jesus in Mark | Jesus in Matthew |
| Adults in fact need to be like little children | "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will NEVER enter it.” (Luke 18:17) | Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will NEVER enter it.” (Mark 10:15) | “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 18:3) |
| Context of passage | People were bringing BABIES to Jesus (Luke 18:15) | People were bringing little children to Jesus (Mark 10:13) | Jesus called a little child to Him (Matt. 18:2) |
| What was the reaction of the disciples? | The disciples rebuked the people for bringing children to Jesus (Luke 18:15) | The disciples rebuked the people for bringing children to Jesus (Mark 10:13) | In the next chapter of Matthew 19 -- people were bringing little children to Jesus -- and the disciples rebuked them for doing that (v. 13) |
| How did Jesus respond to the disciples' rebuke toward the people? | But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these". (Luke 18:16) | When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." (Mark 10:14) | Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matt. 19:14) |
| Passage cite | Verse says | My comment |
| Romans 2:4 | Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? | If you were lost in the dark...and a person guided you home via his light...are you going to credit you stumbling home to yourself? |
| Acts 5:31 | God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might GIVE repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. | [Uh, hint: When you GIVE something of tremendous value to someone else, that's a gift of tremendous generosity...Or, would somebody think: God "owes" us to forgive us?] |
| Acts 11:18 | When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has GRANTED even the Gentiles repentance unto life." | Bottom-line: If God didn't grant repentance to any of us of any age; none of us would have repented!!! (He could leave us hard-hearted & not have the Holy Ghost convict us of anything!) |
| Isaiah 30:15 | This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: 'In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.' | You see, we need to be careful of not making repentance into some "bootstrap" work we of our own power accomplish, thereby turning it into another man-glorifying work. Repentance, Isaiah says, is in a similar category to rest...quietness...trust in another (not in ourselves). But guess what? Too many "religious" people are like the Israelites of old: we "would have none of it." |
Were that to be the case, I could claim, "On such & such a day, I decided to go to heaven."
Who gets/steals the glory for that? (I would be)
Those who embrace decisional regeneration:
1. Tend to rely upon one Old Testament passage (Joshua 24:15) & one New Testament passage (Rev. 3:20). They (often) fail to disclose that Rev. 3:20 was written to a church (of Laodicea) -- with Christians already in their midst. Joshua 24:15 is likewise aimed at God's people.
2. Wind up conveying that those outside of Christ are somehow on "neutral" ground and have this inherent spiritual capacity to "decide". The Bible doesn't lay out any third neutral ground:
We are either...
...in the Kingdom of Light, or one of darkness.
...alive in Christ; or spiritually dead.
...free in Christ; or spiritually enslaved.
Spiritually enslaved people (John 8:34; Romans 6:6-20)...
...who are spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1-5; Luke 9:60)...
...can't simply wield some magical "decision" to regenerate themselves, any more than Lazarus could have "decided" to wake up from the dead & walk out of his grave (John 11).
So, in other words, even Faith isn't the cause of salvation; it is simply THE connector. It's the bridge 100% constructed by Another -- and we don't even move across that bridge on our own power.
Faith responsively participates WITH salvation.
Faith is not something we DO in order to receive God's mercy; it's the RESULT of God's mercy toward us. (It's the opposite of a "required law")
And faith is a 100% gift RECEIVED (Eph. 2:8-9).
Our role as adopted sons is "RECEIVED" (John 1:12); Jesus talked about RECEIVING His Kingdom like a little child (Luke 18:17; Mark 10:15; Matthew 18:3)
| The Father | The Son | The Holy Spirit |
| “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (Jesus, John 6:44) | You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. (Jesus, John 15:16) | "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. (Apostle Paul, 1 Cor. 12:3) |
| [Consider a personal New Testament study upon the word "elect": Every political election -- the people are doing the "choosing"...they are not merely "forecasting" who will win] | 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John, referencing authority given by Jesus to be born of God 1:12-13) | Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5) [My note: NONE of us checked off on our first birth; Jesus four times compares the second birth of the Spirit to the first one in John 3:3-7] |
The New Testament directs us to baptize entire households:
We have references to SIX households that were the target of ministry in the NT alone. In five of these, we see they baptized the entire household:
* 1 Cor. 1:16
* Acts 11:14
* Acts 16:15
* Acts 16:25-34
* Acts 18:8
(Of course, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 would have had no "household" to baptize)
In Judaism and among Greek-speaking Jews, you had what was called the Oikos formula (Oikos = household in Greek).
What makes the Acts' cases interesting is...
1. These were all SUDDEN baptisms. Usually in Western society, we're used to each family member coming along at their own speed -- "in God's timing" -- and the emphasis is not having one family member conform just because somebody else is...or the emphasis is on letting children "make up their OWN minds." (Such is NOT the case in Acts)
2. Acts 16 is particularly of interest because the directive "to believe" by the disciples was made ONLY to the jailer (v. 31)...
...and the ONLY ONE we are told in the account that responded with such belief was again the jailer (v. 34).
Yet...
...who was baptized? (His entire household, v. 33).
...Who was "saved" according to the disciples' promise? (The entire household, v. 31).
...Who rejoiced because of the baptismal salvation? (The entire household, v. 34)
I'm frankly not sure that with FIVE -- count 'em FIVE -- Scriptural accounts of entire-household baptisms -- most if not all done at the same time...
...exactly why people are disobedient by rebelling versus following suit.
With baseball starting up, the Scriptural score is...
...Whole-household baptisms 5...
...Age-of-accountability based baptisms 0...
Ya know, Jesus already indicated that the Gospel alone was going to wind up dividing families:
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ (Jesus, Matthew 10)
I'm not exactly sure why we have entire denominations catering to greater family division by unBiblical age-segmentation baptisms based upon an unBiblical "age-of-accountability" notions.
Why not foster greater family spiritual unity by baptizing entire households?
Why divide the family up unnecessarily when the New Testament doesn't?
And it goes deeper than this (covered this in post #145).
The promise the disciples made in v. 31 was that the entire household would be saved. What's very interesting is that the only recorded appeal to believe is to the jailer himself -- NOT the household (v. 31).
And to confirm this, the ONLY recorded response of belief is the jailer's belief response -- v. 34. NOTHING is mentioned about the rest of his household believing.
Yet the entire household was baptized (v. 33). The entire household rejoiced (v. 34).
I've seen plenty of selfish behavior of 7 & under...
I've seen fights...
Etc.
And your "change the environment" message is not a complete cure-all.
See post #145
#1...Reason is not Lord of my house; our Lord is.
#2...There is NO automated "age of reason" for kids. That is an arbitrary standard that is unBiblical and reason will not only vary from kid to kid, but upon which subject and which emotion is being entertained at the given moment.
Kids can be "reasonable" about plenty and "unreasonable" about plenty...and I've seen enough pre-teen, teen-age, and adult UNreasonable "drama" in certain situations to make me question that so-called threshold you entertain.
#3...Your line of thinking militates verses what I expounded in the first chart in Post #143 -- about who Jesus says belongs the Kingdom of heaven...and it's even younger than "little children" in Luke 18...Luke specifically cites "infants" there as the full context for all that follows.
#4...Please read Post #145...because the Biblical score is...
...Entire household baptisms 5...
...Age of reason baptisms 0...
(I was called on my mistake & I corrected my post)
Is God's grace age-based?
”Moreover, belief in divine Scripture declares to us that among all—whether infants or those who are older—there is the same equality of the divine gift...Otherwise, it would seem that the very grace which is given to the baptized is given either more, or less, depending on the age of the receivers. However, the Holy Spirit is not given with measure...For although the infant is still fresh from its birth, yet it is not such that anyone should shudder at kissing it in giving grace and in making peace.” (Cyprian), 250 AD 5.354
Is the Great Commission of Matthew 28 age-segmented?
”He came to save ALL persons by means of Himself—ALL, I say, who through Him are born again to God—infants, children, boys, youth, and old men.” (Irenaeus), 180 AD, 1.391
I am sorry to inform you that there's apparently plenty of Scripture that you either pay no mind to or militate against:
| What does the Old Testament reveal? | What does the New Testament reveal? | What early church father comments reveal about early church doctrine of sin nature – especially in regard to infant baptism? |
| Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5) | 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL people, because all sinned— … 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) | ”The prophets...tell us that a sacrifice for sin was offered even for new-born infants, as not being free from sin. They say, 'I was shaped in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' Also, 'They are estranged from the womb.' Which is followed by the singular expression,'They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.'” (Origen), 248 AD, 4.631 |
| Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Ecc. 7:20) | ... for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) | ”They ask that their reproach may be taken away—that is, that they might be cleansed from their sins. For the reproach is the original sin that is taken away in baptism. They then begin to be called Christians.” (Victorinus), 280 AD, 7.346 ; ”In baptism, the coarse garment of your birth is washed.” (Commodianus), 240 AD, 4.212 |
| Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. (Ps. 58:3) | ... For the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) [My note: Notice Paul says “sin” singular … when you read Romans 6 + John 8:34, we see that “sin” is treated as a power (vs. “sins” plural – individual acts of wrongdoing)...If 7 yo kids & younger can die – yet if they are 100% innocent – then doesn't that make gods like the Mormon gods unjust if he says they can become subject to a death they don't choose? And yes, a perfect Jesus died, but he CHOSE that route for us. Young kids who die don't choose that route] | ”Nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace. How much more should we shrink from hindering an infant. For he, being lately born, has not sinned – other than, in being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. For this reason, he more easily approaches the reception of the forgiveness of sins. For to him are remitted—not his own sins—but the sins of another. Therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council that no one should be hindered by us from baptism and from the grace of God.” (Cyprian), 250 AD, 5.354 |
| Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4) | -- | ”No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day.” [Job 14:4, 5, IXX].” (Clement of Alexandria), 195 AD 2.428 |
Sorry, are you claiming that ALL of the church fathers in the right column of the chart below --
--and the apostle Paul --
-- and Solomon and David, etc.
-- all in the chart below --
...assume "the position of the pedophile" and teach "the doctrine of Molech"???
Really???
I am sorry to inform you that there's apparently plenty of Scripture that you either pay no mind to or militate against:
| What does the Old Testament reveal? | What does the New Testament reveal? | What early church father comments reveal about early church doctrine of sin nature – especially in regard to infant baptism? |
| Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5) | 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL people, because all sinned— … 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) | ”The prophets...tell us that a sacrifice for sin was offered even for new-born infants, as not being free from sin. They say, 'I was shaped in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' Also, 'They are estranged from the womb.' Which is followed by the singular expression,'They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.'” (Origen), 248 AD, 4.631 |
| Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Ecc. 7:20) | ... for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) | ”They ask that their reproach may be taken away—that is, that they might be cleansed from their sins. For the reproach is the original sin that is taken away in baptism. They then begin to be called Christians.” (Victorinus), 280 AD, 7.346 ; ”In baptism, the coarse garment of your birth is washed.” (Commodianus), 240 AD, 4.212 |
| Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. (Ps. 58:3) | ... For the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) [My note: Notice Paul says “sin” singular … when you read Romans 6 + John 8:34, we see that “sin” is treated as a power (vs. “sins” plural – individual acts of wrongdoing)...If 7 yo kids & younger can die – yet if they are 100% innocent – then doesn't that make gods like the Mormon gods unjust if he says they can become subject to a death they don't choose? And yes, a perfect Jesus died, but he CHOSE that route for us. Young kids who die don't choose that route] | ”Nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace. How much more should we shrink from hindering an infant. For he, being lately born, has not sinned – other than, in being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. For this reason, he more easily approaches the reception of the forgiveness of sins. For to him are remitted—not his own sins—but the sins of another. Therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council that no one should be hindered by us from baptism and from the grace of God.” (Cyprian), 250 AD, 5.354 |
| Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4) | -- | ”No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day.” [Job 14:4, 5, IXX].” (Clement of Alexandria), 195 AD 2.428 |
No, I am claiming that you are misinterpreting and ending up in the position of the pedophile with this bad doctrine. If children are born sinful, then it follows that they can sin. If they can sin, then they are as guilty as the pedophile and perhaps they do desire a sexual relationship with adults the pedophiles claim.
I reject that as ungodly and wholly inconsistent with holy scripture. You cannot parse the Bible and generate your own doctrine. You must take it as a whole. All you’ve done is prove the need for continuing revelation with your weak appeals to authority. Bible-whispering is anti-Christ.
It’s not your Bible to parse. Take it all or leave it all. One cannot stake out a position and then snip verses out of the Bible. The appeal to authority is undermined by this. Plus, the Jews themselves had 13 as the age of accountability.
That is true, often you can change the environment and the child won’t change because there is a physical or mental defect beyond the environment. But, nearly always, behavior is driven by environment. The Bible condemns the parent who doesn’t raise their child up to the Lord. Most often a child’s behavior reflects the parent’s behavior and response. It’s mostly environmental.
In the same way that bad doctrine leads to bad outcomes. You might like this book on parenting:
It’s extremely effective when used. It’s also the cheapest $18 you ever spent, if you want to have a family more heavenly than you can imagine. It works with spouses, friends and strangers, too.
When you label the messenger as the "parser" I suppose it's a LOT easier then of not having to deal with the "text" -- that which is being expounded...
You can take all of Romans 3, ALL of Romans 5, ALL of Romans 6...and read it yourself...
Nobody forces you to be a "parsed out" receiver of anything Biblical...it's there as an ENTIRE book...
So digest it as a whole...
...Revise and rewrite those Biblical chapters as a whole...
...do what you want as a whole...
...but deal with the text...
...then you'll be at complete liberty to halt whining about their specifics...
Of course, the implications of your position is to truncate the Great Commission...
For now it's not to "make disciples of all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name -- not names like the Mormons make it out to be -- of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- and teaching them to observe all that Christ commands...
...NoW the truncated Mormon version is to leave off the young kids!
"Go make disciples of ALL ethnic groups except the kids! Because they're already 'perfect'"
********************************************
ALL: What's even stranger for the Mormon doctrine that kids are "perfect" for the first 7 years & 364 days of their lives!
It's been a LONG time since I posted the "Top Ten" doublespeak list on Mormonism...and I won't repost it now. But here was #10 from that list:
10. "Little kids are perfect until age 8. That's why we baptize them at that age...for the remission of sins...that, uh, the sins they, uh, don't have."
"And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old... (Joseph Smith, Doctrine & Covenants 68:27)
Either you -- 1010rd -- or you Stormprepper -- wish to explain to the world this curious Mormon doctrine of Mormon baptism for the remission of sins...in light of the Mormon doctrine of childhood perfection?
What sins are there to "remit" if they are indeed perfect, as the Book of Mormon claims:
...little children are whole, for they are NOT CAPABLE OF COMMITTING SIN..." (Moroni 8:8).
In fact, Joseph Smith has the character Moroni claim just three verses later that "their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins." (Moroni 8:11)
IF indeed the lone purposes of Mormon baptism is (a) repentance; and (b) the remission of sins...what indeed do perfect Mormon children even need to be baptized for?
What happens at age 8 that isn't there at age 7 and 364 days? What are Mormons doing in their "environments" over a single day causing their children to have this cancer-like sin that suddenly needs remission?
(It seems like 1010 that if you are baptizing 8 yo suddenly in need of "sin remission" after NOT being capable of sin, that you are IMPUTING sin to them ... and collectively so...across the board to just about EVERY Mormon 8 yo...curious)
By your own standards, is that not assuming a "pedophile" position in blaming all these Mormon 8 yo?
It seems the point of my post has escaped you entirely.
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