Posted on 03/07/2015 7:24:03 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made ; his eternal power also, and divinity : so that they are inexcusable.
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks ; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Jesus Christ Himself said, "This is my body", folks pretend that's the same as when Christ didn't rip the door off of a house, hold it up, and say, "This is me". Such folks base their claim that Jesus Christ did not say exactly what he intended to say solely on their Self and Self Alone not wanting to deal with the consequences of taking Jesus Christ at His word.
Obviously, you most certainly do know someone who has fallen for the strong delusion of Self and Self Alone
Have a very Hello Kitty kinda day
Rashputin,
None of those verses is about the Lord’s Supper.
“Jesus Christ Himself said, “This is my body”, “
We agree 100% that Christ said this. We disagree with what it means.
“Such folks base their claim that Jesus Christ did not say exactly what he intended to say solely on their Self and Self Alone not wanting to deal with the consequences of taking Jesus Christ at His word.”
Not so much actually. There are hundreds of millions of Christians that believe something different than you... so your name calling of their beliefs is false. They are certainly not alone.
The consequence of taking Him at His Word is partaking of the Lord’s Supper together and in communion with each other and in His spiritual presence. We remember Him, thank Him for His amazing sacrifice and in humility receive the bread and wine as a memorial of the just judgement our own sins deserved and His gracious solution to the Adamic life inside us that is the source of our sins. We are consequently grateful for His sacrifice for us and of our co-crucifiction with Him.
What hundreds of millions of Christians don’t do is make His words into more than He said.
What we don’t have to do is use artworks to change the appearance of the elements to make them appear with worldly glory - any more than Christ did during the Last Passover where He instituted the Lord’s Supper.
As I started with, Catholics have been taught something different. Fine. We just disagree.
You keep making my point about Self and Self Alone for me as if giving examples of denying what Scripture, Jesus Christ Himself in particular, says is not denying Scripture.
John 6:56 "For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed"
Christ Himself even reintegrates that He is really present in the Eucharist, the real presence.
Until the Protestant revolt against the Church that started by throwing seven books out of the Old Testament and followed that with first claiming the faith of the recipient made His presence real then with denying the real presence completely, no one denied what Christ Himself said. Now, those who prefer to substitute their own wisdom for what is clearly stated in Scripture deny the real presence by denying that Jesus Christ said what He clearly did say.
When someone elevates them self above Jesus Christ, by definition they believe in their Self and Self Alone and Christ is only a stage prop for them.
So, as you put it, we disagree, fine. No more pretense of invincible ignorance is possible and anyone who prefers followng their Self just as Eve did rather than following Christ is free to do so.
” You keep making my point about Self and Self Alone for me as if giving examples of denying what Scripture, Jesus Christ Himself in particular, says is not denying Scripture.”
Thanks, but no sale. We do not believe it says what you claim. Hundreds of millions of Christians.
“John 6:56 - Christ Himself even reintegrates that He is really present in the Eucharist, the real presence.”
Again, we disagree on meaning... of this passage as well as the others on the night of Passover.
“Until the Protestant revolt against the Church that started by throwing seven books out of the Old Testament”
We will disagree. We believe they never should have been in there. You can read the arguments online, so not worth delineating here.
“When someone elevates them self above Jesus Christ, by definition they believe in their Self and Self Alone and Christ is only a stage prop for them.”
And yet we do not believe this is happening. We believe Christ is not there physically. Some groups believe it is a bare memorial. Most believe there is a spiritual reality. My church is in the latter group. Neither group is “self alone.”
In regards to the self-alone claim, you might as well look internally to hundreds of millions of Catholics who believe birth control, abortion, gay marriage, etc. is perfectly fine. Clean it up and you’ll have a leg to stand on in this claim.
“No more pretense of invincible ignorance is possible and anyone who prefers followng their Self just as Eve did rather than following Christ is free to do so.”
And equally, those who prefer arts and crafts to make the wafer look like it is glorious will do so. You do have to work on your “self alone” line. It sounds good until examined and then fails.
Best.
No, I don't need to look at people who claim to be Catholic but who aren't any more than I need to look at people who claim to be Christian while denying what Jesus Christ Himself very clearly stated and reiterated.
Unlike such folks I trust the Holy Spirit and know the Holy Spirit didn't allow His Church to teach error for fifteen hundred years until some heretic could find Nobles to support and protect him and his heresy for their own ends.
I believe the Holy Spirit can and does protect His Word from error and that the Holy Spirit made sure that His Word has been properly interpreted from the Apostles to this very day no matter what alternative interpretations the Self and Self Alone crowd use to try and rationalize away their refusal to obey Jesus Christ.
Of course, someone who believes Jesus Christ Himself, God made flesh, was incapable of saying exactly what He intended to say it's no problem for them to believe the Holy Spirit hid in a cave for fifteen hundred years and allowed error to be taught by the Apostles and everyone from the Apostles until the Protestant heretics.
” Unlike such folks I trust the Holy Spirit and know the Holy Spirit didn’t allow His Church to teach error for fifteen hundred years until some heretic could find Nobles to support and protect him and his heresy for their own ends.”
Scripture teaches that churches do indeed sometimes teach error and fail in actions - as evidenced in the opening chapters of Revelation. It means what it says.
“I believe the Holy Spirit can and does protect His Word from error and that the Holy Spirit made sure that His Word has been properly interpreted from the Apostles to this very day no matter what alternative interpretations the Self and Self Alone crowd use to try and rationalize away their refusal to obey Jesus Christ.”
Protected and preserved, absolutely. Protected form false interpretation, hardly and sadly no. Hundreds of millions of Christians disagree with your interpretation and do obey Christ, by regularly celebrating the Lord’s Supper in memory of Him until He returns. That you disagree with them is between you and them. I’m content to celebrate in obedience.
“Of course, someone who believes Jesus Christ Himself, God made flesh, was incapable of saying exactly what He intended to say “
He said what He wanted. That we disagree on what He meant is the issue.
“it’s no problem for them to believe the Holy Spirit hid in a cave for fifteen hundred years and allowed error to be taught by the Apostles and everyone from the Apostles until the Protestant heretics.”
There is historic discontinuity you are portraying as continuity. Sorry Rashputin. We will continue to disagree.
Oh? You're saying that there were people who disagreed with the Apostles and they were right while the Apostles were wrong?
Whatever. All my life people have bragged about what a Protestant nation the United States was and Protestants have made up 75% or more of the population. At least since the sixties, half or more of all Catholics who still called themselves Catholic adopted the Protestant doctrine of deciding for themselves what was or wasn't the true meaning of Scripture.
We now live in the society Romans Chapter 1 describes and from which I quoted the verses earlier. Those who survive the roulette of abortion by contraception or invasive procedures, that is, those who aren't murdered by their own parents, now gravitate towards policies that will murder their parents when they become a burden to society.
The fruit of Protestantism in this country is clearly exactly what is described in Romans Chapter 1.
Matt 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them."
Self and Self Alone rationalizes away the words of Christ Himself and Romans 1 describes the resulting fruit.
have a nice day
” fruit of Protestantism in this country is clearly exactly what is described in Romans Chapter 1.”
Quite dour today! I hope your world brightens up!
“Objectively though, based on the specific examples of people faced with the glory of God... If the wafer were really the very presence of Christ, His glory would be so overwhelming people would fall down before him and a fake sunbeam (monstronce) would not be necessary to make it appear glorious.”
And the gospels tell us that Jesus was radiant with overwhelming glory every moment of his earthly life?
I agree! "Before Abraham was, I AM!" I picture the child Jesus, seeing God's creation as a human: marvelling at His Own creation from a child's point of view! How he doesn't get tired of us, I don't know, except that His Love is beyond our understanding.
Great post!
“Jesus Christ did walk the earth both pre- and post-resurrection and the people did not fall down when they saw Him (except once, that I remember, at the Transfiguration when He was shown in all His glory). Why would He treat us differently with regards to the Host?”
A good question. That was then. This is now.
Christ had not been glorified. His ascension marked the beginning of the fulfillment of John 17:5. He is glorified now.
He had not been exalted over every name and every created thing and over all rulers and authorities. He is exalted now.
He had not been seated at the right hand of the Father. He is seated in authority now. Ephesians 1:20 and following. Mark 16:19
John the Apostle saw Him as He is now and describes the glorified and exalted Christ in Revelation 1:12-16:
“I turned to see whose voice was speaking to me, and when I did so, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands was one like a son of man. He was dressed in a robe extending down to his feet and he wore a wide golden belt around his chest. 14 His head and hair were as white as wool, even as white as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame. 15 His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp double-edged sword extended out of his mouth. His face shone like the sun shining at full strength.”
No monstronce necessary. He is now glorified.
John’s reaction to the glorified Christ was this:
“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.” (Revelation 1:17,17)
The Monstrance is decorated in His Honor.
“And the gospels tell us that Jesus was radiant with overwhelming glory every moment of his earthly life? “
No they do not. He had not been glorified. He is now. See previous post.
“Jesus is capable of hiding His Glory. Was He recognized immediately on the road to Emmaus? No. It was”in the breaking of the bread.”
He had not yet ascended.
“The Monstrance is decorated in His Honor. “
It may be done to try to honor Him. I cannot judge the motive. The truth though is that Christ is exalted and glorified above every name that is named. The monstronce is an idol or attempted glory. A toy in comparison to His glory.
What does “glorified” mean?
Is it a univocal term meaning only “radiant with overwhelming VISIBLE glory”?
Was the “glorification” of Jesus a single moment—before which he was absolutely without glory, and after which his glory necessarily was overwhelmingly radiant? Of course not.
You ignore the Transfiguration, which occurred BEFORE the “glorification” of Jesus. You ignore the fact that Mary Magdalene mistook the risen Jesus for the gardener.
Obviously, the presence of Jesus may or may not be accompanied by VISIBLE glory, as God chooses.
The absence of visible glory is no argument against the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
PS: BRY-SON! 🎆😁🎆 (cheerleader!)
loopy logic, imo
Faulty logic:
GOD is Love
Love is not a being that can be blind
He is the Creator. We are the creation. Can anything we do compare to His Glory? It is He Who is in the Sacrament. We do our best to honor Him.
Luke 24 He had resurrected from the dead. No, not ascended. We won't see Him in His full glory until we're in Heaven, or He comes again, whichever is first.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.