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Locked on 02/25/2015 3:29:26 PM PST by Jim Robinson, reason:
childishness |
Posted on 02/20/2015 12:33:03 PM PST by RnMomof7
No....I actually said please....and I needed help in finding what he had referred to...
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Maybe and maybe not....I figure that since Christ was a Catholic, and Peter was the first Catholic Pope, and Paul was a Catholic as were the rest of the Apostles (except Judas) I think that he was....anyway as I was saying, since they were all Catholic as was every Christian in history up until the revolution, there must be something to that Catholic thing.....I'll stick with it.
Um....one more time I need to suggest you read your church view on that. Or do I once again have to show you?
Only in Catholic fantasies.
Not to interfere in your conversation....but why??/it abbreviates protestant...Catholics are often referred to as RC's and we know what it means.......just asking!
Please list for us, the other denominations....say in the year......oh....1037.....just the main ones is o.K.
I have never stated at least I have never intentionally stated that one religion is as good as another, I have simply not stated that one religion is better than another. If I did think one church better than another why would my “opinion” be of any value to anyone else. My father once explained to me that opinions were line a—holes, everybody had one and most of them stink.
It appears however that some religions have a much more weighted claim to truth than others. That the “Catholic” churches are the descendants of the church led by Peter seems to be true by evidence we see in historical records. That is some pretty heavy weight. Being the remnant of the original church however does not necessarily make the Catholic faith “THE” only faith approved by our God. As I said earlier therein lies the rub, as Sportin Life said in Porgy and Bess, “it ain’t necessarily so.”
Are there reasons to question The Catholic Church? I should say so, but I am a nobody as we are all nobodies and must make decisions based on the knowledge we have before us. What God has given to us in His infinite wisdom is His Holy Spirit to help us come to a righteous decision about faith.
The thing is, I believe God our Heavenly Father, the Father of us all is a real being, a being who hears my prayers, who loves me simply because I am His child. I am not unique, He loves us all. I believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God and that because I (and all others) are sinners we lost our chance to ever be with God again because only perfection can dwell in God’s presence. I am not perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect, yet He was subjected to the punishment that God’s law prescribes to my imperfection, He did not have to do that, He did it because He loves me. Because He did what He did on that day when I stand before God and the books are opened there will be a blot mark where my sins were, When God questions what was there The Lord, The Savior, Jesus Christ will say the penalty has already been paid, he is mine, I purchased him with My blood. I will then be ushered in to His presence to live with Him forever. I will become an heir with Christ of all that His Father has.
These are things I know through study, prayer and by revelation given to me by The Holy Ghost. There are many that teach these things so I am not alone in my knowledge of them but some that teach those things teach other things that I may not agree with. Some teach that without a righteous priesthood to administer the laws and ordinances of His church that my knowledge of Him and His Father are useless, these people make a good case and are worth listening to. Others who believe the same things but again have beliefs that I question say that authority to administer the laws and ordinances of The Gospel of Jesus Christ come from another source, they come from The Holy Bible and knowledge received from Seminary instruction, from the laying on of hands from wise, educated and respected people. Like Martin Luther they too make a a good case for their understanding.
The problem is as I see it they can’t all be right, they are in fact mutually exclusive. Each church calls the other church wrong and in many cases are singled out by the wise educated people as simpletons, ignoramuses or even worse , evil. The churches I see most singled our are Catholics and Mormons. For some reason the churches that are descended from Catholic are not singled out for the berating that I have seen and heard over and over for the better part of the last seventy years. During my years on earth I have witnessed a few things on my own without the help of others. I have read and re-read the Bible many times. I have read in Matthew 7 how we should pray in secret, I have also read there that by their fruits you shall know them. When I see a TV preacher with an animated prayer and an 800 number on the screen to call to give donations I get turned off and think of rotten fruit. When I see the Catholic Church I see a lot of good fruit. When I see the Mormons I see a lot of good fruit. Is there unrighteousness in those churches? Perhaps but by their fruits they look pretty good.
I am done with criticizing other peoples churches that have good fruit and when I see good fruits I like to acknowledge them and investigate them. When I see churches that ordain queers and teach that marriage between two men or two women is the same as between a man and a woman then I classify that as bad fruit. When I see a church teach that the ten commandments are done away with when The Lord didn’t say that, but that they were fulfilled I see bad fruit. It would be tempting to say that because a minister or priest did something wrong that that is bad fruits but I have decided that what individuals do should not be what we judge a church by, we judge by their doctrines.
When churches do what they think will bring them the most money I have a hard time feeling their inspiration. When I see churches with good fruits I may not believe they are right but I am sure not going to believe they are wrong.
That which is anathema (the proper spelling by the way, and I’m not sure why you have a semicolon after the word “mind”) is not what determines what is or is not anathema. God, his teachings, the Bible, and the doctrines of my Church determine what is anathema. Your opining that what is anathema is akin to situational ethics, which isn’t too far removed from Protestantism theory that everyone can figure out God’s lesson’s without help.
No, I won’t still try to remedy those who ignore the obvious. I realize it’s part of the character of some people, too deeply embedded in them.
In post #430, what I mean to say is that what is anathema is not what I think it is. It’s determined outside of me.
Thanks for starting my day with a laugh. Seriously? Where on earth did you hear THAT fantasy? It surely is not in the Scriptures.
Was it some guy in a dress?
Silly me--and all this time I thought they were Jews.
Hoss
Being Catholic, or for that matter any denomination doe s not by virtue of membership equal being Christian.
Hoss
Haven't you been reading along?
You KNOW that is something I would not do!
I'd more likely pray to my oak tree in the yard, for at least IT is ALIVE!
Let's see...
HE was in the Upper Room with His disciples.
He was talking TO them, about a SPECIFIC meal, and SAID specific things; to them.
Let me mull this over in my mind a bit.
The results for the 72 or 12 mention how Jesus sent them out on specific commissions.
And you are a judge.
OK...
Just like you've judged what THESE guys were teaching??
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,
Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm
Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,
Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peters confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71
And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,
If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith. Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.
Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church, (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.
Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:
Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on GalatiansPhilemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42
Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
Augustine, in Retractions,
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.. Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
For all bear the surname rock who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters. Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
Has Mormonism ever renounced these statements by it's leaders?
Are the 'FACTS' stated herein STILL in effect?
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