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To: paladinan

And yet you included no differences in the actual meaning of the word. For example, the first definition is simply “just”. Context would indicate that in some cases the word simply means “just” or “impartial” where in others we can clearly understand it to mean “righteous” as in the righteousness of Christ. Demanding the same meaning in all cases is naive.


639 posted on 02/19/2015 6:49:29 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
And yet you included no differences in the actual meaning of the word. For example, the first definition is simply “just”. Context would indicate that in some cases the word simply means “just” or “impartial” where in others we can clearly understand it to mean “righteous” as in the righteousness of Christ. Demanding the same meaning in all cases is naive.

I'm not demanding the same meaning in both cases; that's not my point. My point is that anti-Catholic Church commenters' use of Romans 3:10 to suggest that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin is somehow "unscriptural" is equally naive. One can't simply grab a verse which seems to suit one's purposes, and then throw it against the wall in the hopes that it'll stick! If "proper interpretation" can prevent contradiction between these apparent "proof texts of Scripture", then proper interpretation can prevent a contradiction between, say, Romans 3:10 and the dogma of the Sinlessness of (and the Immaculate Conception of) the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Moreover, this highlights a fatal flaw in "sola Scriptura"; I see a great deal of NCC "scrambling" to find interpretations which resolve the apparent contradiction... and I don't fault you--I agree that there is no contradiction, but I think so because I assert that Romans 3:10 is speaking about humanity in its GENERAL nature (i.e. humanity is, in its essence, fallen and deserving of nothing but damnation), not in specific cases--but these "interpretations" all go "beyond what is written" (as any interpretation HAS to do, at least to some extent). In other words, you're using non-sola-Scriptura approaches to try to defend sola Scriptura... and that simply won't do.

(As an illustration: think of Hebrews 9:27: "And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment [...]". This describes the EXPECTED outcome of any human life, due to the appointment/decree of God; it is not "proven false" simply because Enoch and Elijah went to God without dying, nor are the assumptions of Enoch and Elijah disproven because of Hebrews 9:27! Just so, with Romans 3:10; it is not proven false because of the sinlessness of Mary--who is sinless by the sheer gift of God--any more than the sinlessness of Mary is disproven by Romans 3:10!)

Think of it this way: if Romans 3:10 says that "none are righteous", you've already admitted that the word "righteous" (Gk: "dikaios") could mean many different things. Given no other context, it could theoretically mean that "no one deserves salvation in his own right" (which is absolutely true, by virtue of the fact that salvation is a free gift from God), or it could mean that "no one is sinless" (which you'd need to prove).

The frustrating thing about these discussions is the way that people can "go off the rails" and make pure assumptions (often while accusing the opponent of the very same thing). For example: NCC's sometimes assume AUTOMATICALLY (without any apparent deliberation) that "Mary = sinless" logically implies "Mary = goddess"... which is as illogical as it is bizarre. Another bizarre and illogical canard thrown about would be the idea of "Mary = sinless" = "Mary doesn't need a savior", or even "Mary = sinless" = "Mary is sinless BY HER OWN POWER"... which are both equally bizarre, and are utter straw men (i.e. the Catholic Church does not, and never did, teach anything of the sort. If you find something contrary in the Catechism, I'll be happy to admit my error.).

Let me be clear: the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that the Blessed Virgin Mary was PRESERVED (passive voice, indicating that the agent is someone other than Mary) from all stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. The doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary states that the Blessed Virgin was given sufficient grace BY GOD (not on her own power--that accusation is made up of whole cloth) to remain sinless for her entire life.

If you're going to attach Catholic doctrine, attack the REAL ones... and not simply straw men which are cobbled together with disparate quotes from random Catholic authors of varying degrees of qualification.
642 posted on 02/19/2015 8:29:34 AM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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