Posted on 02/11/2015 12:02:36 PM PST by RnMomof7
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.Do you see my point? The person whom you cited most often for your idea turns out to "flesh out" the doctrine so as to include the very "exception" (more accurately, clarification of the full definition) which you hoped to knock down! Other examples abound; St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly described the principle of invincible ignorance (i.e. the teaching that those who, through no fault of their own, were not exposed to any credible portrayal of the Gospel, and who were not baptized and made Christians, may still attain salvation through sufficient adherence to what they had--i.e. the natural law; see St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, I-II, 76).
Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7; August 10, 1863
Here’s a sort of general question, bouncing off the conversation I’m having with metmom:
Does anyone on this forum subscribe to the belief that “unevangelized adults go to hell when they die” (since they never accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, etc.)?
I’m not talking about the stubborn modern who heard a credible presentation of the Gospel, and rejected it in favor of his current lifestyle (that’s a separate issue); I mean a hypothetical “true pagan” who’s never heard “word one” of the Gospel, due either to living in some aboriginal backwater or to living in a post-Christian country or area (I think of several places in Europe which would qualify). If such people die, would they be damned to hell for not being Christian, in your view?
It clarifies that the Catholic Church uses a lot of double speak and most all they say is not according to scripture.
There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church except for some addendums. Then if someone has never heard of the Catholic Church but lives a good life they are saved unless the Catholic Church sends a missionary and they don't think it's necessary because they were living a good life anyway but now they are lost because they now know about the Catholic Church.
And Catholics believe all that!!! It's nuts!
They are not saved.
If you think they are why would you send in missionaries? If they are already saved but you send in missionaries and they don't think it's necessary you have just taken a saved person and made them unsaved. Is that why Christ said to go into all the world? What would have been the point?
Baptism is NOT required to be saved.
Even Peter disqualified water baptism as being able to confer salvation.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Otherwise, you are saying that if a person puts their faith in Christ for salvation and dies before they can be baptized, they are going to hell.
If baptism saves you, Christ died for nothing.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
If you don't believe, you are condemned. Baptism or not.
Jesus didn't say that if you are not baptized you are condemned. He said if you don't BELIEVE.
There is no contradiction whatsoever. One only needs to look at the Hebrew and Greek words used and understand that context is important. The words mean "just", "impartial", or "righteous". The righteousness of Christ is obviously inclusive of all of those. When an man is called righteous one needs to take context into consideration.
When Paul says "there is no one righteous he wouldn't have meant there is no one who is just. Certainly there were just men. When we are required to be "righteous before God" it would mean much more then just being just or impartial.
For salvation we need the perfect righteousness of Christ and that is imparted to us by faith in His perfect sacrifice for our sins and our faith in Him alone.
In your examples of Matthew 13:49 and Matthew 25:37 those were believers who had been covered with the righteousness of Christ.
paladian,
Sorry to jump into a discussion, but I believe just finding a similar word and trying to make it mean the same thing as the Romans passage is a sure way to failure. I’m sure you must know this.
In the first passage in Romans, God, inspiring Paul by the Holy Spirit, details in the most complete way possible that there are none righteous. Zero. Nor is the Law a way to righteousness. The whole world is included in his description.
You contrasted this with Noah and the brief snippet that he is referred to as righteous. Finding the same word used is just the surface, but tells you no more.
In the case of Noah, Scripture clearly tells us why he was righteous:
Hebrews 11:7
“By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.”
To go through every one of your passages is ultimately interesting, but not fit for a forum discussion... Especially in light of the universal condemnation of all men apart from the righteousness of Christ.
Which is the same and only reason any human is ever righteous.
Best.
They are righteous because of their faith, Not their works.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
So... is that a contradiction? Logically, the statements "the number of righteous is 0" and "the number of righteous is not 0" are flatly contradictory; they cannot possibly be true at the same time, and there are no other options... so one must be right, and one must be wrong.
Of course not a contradiction at all. What do these same Scriptures say how such individuals accessed this righteousness? There you will find your answer.
No man is righteous.
Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
But God declares them judicially righteous.
However, that does not change the fact that the Catholic church is changing its teaching and contradicting itself.
As for the baptism aspect, you go on listing several different kinds of baptism, and yet by including all those different forms, actually end up disqualifying water baptism as being necessary for salvation.
People are not damned to hell for not being Christian.
People are already damned to hell and it's accepting Christ that saves them from going where they belong.
They already deserve hell.
Catholics seem to have this problem with understanding human nature and divine judgment.
We are not going to heaven until we somehow lose it. We are going to hell until we accept Christ and put our trust in Him to save us from that.
So yes, people who have never heard are going to hell, but not because God damns them, but because that it the penalty for the sin they commit.
They're headed there anyway until they're kept from it.
We know that the Holy Spirit would not contradict Himself and we know that Scripture is God-breathed. ERGO, whatever we might think is a contradiction, it can't be and it's up to us to study the Scriptures to determine what is being communicated. On the other hand, what some church bigwigs get together and decide is their "truth", may or may not BE the truth and they could very well come back later and walk back what they previously stated was "infallible" truth. The Roman Catholic church - though they are hardly alone in this - has been caught doing this more than a few times. They might come along and try to explain it in "lawyer" speak so as to not admit they just contradicted themselves, but it is obvious to those objective enough to see it.
You're comparing apples to Thursday.
Well said!
BOOM!
"as it is written: 'None is righteous [Greek: "Dikaios"], no, not one'" (Romans 3:10, citing Psalm 14 and similar Scriptures)The Greek word is identical (only the case ending of the word changed a bit, as it's used in different parts of speech). That handles the "Greek words" part of your response; now, could you explain to me how "context" helps your case, here? Especially since I've seem people use the word "context" as a sort of "magical incantation" to mean "my opinion is right, and yours is wrong, and you'd know that if only you had eyes to see!" (which is a garden-variety "special pleading" fallacy).
compared to the following:
"Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous [Greek: "Dikaioi"] men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."
(Matthew 13:17)
"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous [Greek: "Dikaion"]..."
(Matthew 13:49)
"Then the righteous [Greek: "Dikaioi"] will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee [...]?"
(Matthew 25:37)
"Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe'a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous [Greek: "Dikaios"] man,"
(Luke 23:50)
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
And yet you included no differences in the actual meaning of the word. For example, the first definition is simply “just”. Context would indicate that in some cases the word simply means “just” or “impartial” where in others we can clearly understand it to mean “righteous” as in the righteousness of Christ. Demanding the same meaning in all cases is naive.
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