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To: Kolokotronis; .45 Long Colt; ADSUM; metmom; piytar; boatbums; Iscool; daniel1212; Steelfish; ...
>>I am sincerely curious, who?<<

If you are "sincerely" looking for truth you may want to do some reading. Clement of Alexandria (150-215) who Origen studied under would be one. He was revered by the Roman Catholic Church but his name was removed from Roman Martyrology mostly because of his views on the figurative language of what Catholic refer to as the Eucharist.

A very good article about his views on the figurative language of the Lord's supper can be found here.

The two books by Clement referenced in that article are the Paedagogus and the Stromata. They can be read at the links.

Others mentioned in that article are Tertullian of Carthage, Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and Ignatius of Antioch.

Catholics who do NOT want to find truth should NOT read this article.

294 posted on 02/06/2015 6:18:09 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Thank-you. I’ll read the linked works.


298 posted on 02/06/2015 6:46:49 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: CynicalBear

No need to read any “articles” The truth is out there in the own words of the early Church theologians, and similarly, don’t need to read if Bible Christians don’t want to know why they are so wrong, and instead refer to articles by un-credentialed bloggers and writers that no college theological department would recommend as part of their curriculum.

In their own words: Check the DATES. Many of them were familiar with the apostles and bear in mind the books in the Bible were assembled around 300-400 AD about which time Petrine authority and Apostolic succession was well established.

Pope Clement I

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Hegesippus

“When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord” (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).

St. Irenaeus

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

“Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time” (See 3:3:4).

How Interpretational Disputes Were Settled

“Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?” (See 3:4:1).

“[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth” (See 4:26:2).

“The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere” (See 4:33:8).

Tertullian
ONE CHURCH

“Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith”.

Cyprian of Carthage

“[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way” (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

Jerome

“Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians” (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

“[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here.

The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).


299 posted on 02/06/2015 7:00:36 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: CynicalBear

Your comment: “A very good article about his views on the figurative language of the Lord’s supper can be found “

No, it was full of errors and misdirection and personal opinion and condescending comments that did not logically refute the 10 page article by Karl Keating. Who was the author of the 4 page reply? Not important.

You can believe this garbage if you want to. I believe in the words of Jesus and His Catholic Church. I did read both articles.

My personal belief is if you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, then you are rejecting Jesus Christ. Jesus said that too.

You may feel that you are already saved and know exactly the words of God. Humans err and they also sin, so be a servant of God and lead a Christ-like life. We need more love of one another and not hatred.


303 posted on 02/06/2015 7:48:30 PM PST by ADSUM
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