Posted on 01/23/2015 8:02:48 AM PST by NKP_Vet
We will have to agree to disagree.
You have it exactly right. Homosexuality is only one of many sins that human beings struggle with. It is no better or worse than the sins people struggle with and commit everyday for which God grants us much mercy and grace. That fact must be separated from the impact the social and political agenda of homosexuals has on our culture. Most offensive is the attempt to redefine our religious beliefs and traditions and even God Himself based on our personal desires and preferences.
Christianity is not about God conforming Himself to us, it is about us conforming ourselves to God. It is good that the Pope recognizes this.
“but I guess I do not know why he said this when he has said in 2013, the Pope was asked about the so-called “gay lobby” in the Vatican.”
He never said that in reference to the “gay lobby” anywhere.
“Replied when asked about the Vatican’s alleged “gay lobby” that while a lobby might be an issue, he doesn’t have any problem with the inclination to homosexuality itself: “Who am I to judge them if they’re seeking the Lord in good faith?” he said.”
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/pope-homosexuals-who-am-i-judge
See the difference between what you claim and what he actually said?
***(what is truly in their heart). We only know what we objectively observe.***
If they are sinning we have a pretty good idea what is going on in their heart.
If they are being nice and all it my be a Christian, or someone who has sin in their heart and trying get something.
You must have very limited experience in this thing we call life.
There are people we see steal, but suffer from a mental disorder. We see people do things we know as wrong, but were never taught.
We see any number of things which are objectively evil, like killing, but are mitigated by things such as self-preservation.
This list goes on and on.
We have no real idea what is going on inside the hearts and minds of our fellow man. For if we did, we would likely have more compassion.
Have you ever held a man while he was dying because half of his body was blown away by a mortar round?? Have you ever been shot at in the inner city? Have you ever been to a country like Liberia and seen the atrocities that have taken place?
I have plenty of experience in this thing we call life.
But even with my experience I look to Scripture to understand peoples hearts:
1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Matthew 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Getting that right in our minds would maybe force us into some, at first, uncomfortable positions. But, I believe it is what God wants us to do. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" I have heard that somewhere...
You have certainly seen and experienced many things, but we lack the Lord’s eyes.
Neither of us can truly see into another man’s heart, mind, or soul. Only God can do that. That is what Samuel is saying. God sees and knows what we can’t.
It is certainly true that wickedness and evil come out of our hearts, minds, and mouths. However, as humans, only we know what is in OUR hearts.
We are not God. We possess neither His omniscience, nor His Mercy. We try to follow as best as possible His law. We fail. Fortunately, God knows us better than we know ourselves, and can be counted upon as not only a fair, but merciful judge. For His mercy is greater than ours.
May we always contemplate this petition in the Our Father, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” I am still working on forgiving others, so this petition makes me a little nervous.
May you find peace and healing for the wounds you have suffered.
Which is my point. If we see a raging sinner we pretty much know what is in his heart. If we see a nonChristian doing nice things, well, his heart is still uncircumcised. As far as folks in the church, we are called to judge them.
We do know the heart is evil ...
Luke 12:55-57 “And when you see the south wind blow, you say, 'There will be hot weather'; and there is.” Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time? “Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?”
Mat 7:16Ye shall know them by their fruits,” (judging)
John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”
1 Thess. 5:21-22 “ Test all things; hold fast what is good." ( making a judgement)
This word judge (Greek-krino) is used over 80 times in the New Testament and it means to call in question, discern, conclude, decree, and determine.
None of us can know the eternal destination of anyman.. even Hitler may have been saved before his death.. but we can and should judge sin ...and the pope FAILED
If he truly wanted to make "unmistakable reference" to gay marriage, it should be unmistakable. Like actually saying "gay marriage".
But he didn't.
“Like actually saying “gay marriage””.
No, he should never have used the PC term “gay” to describe homosexuals. That was his first mistake during that infamous interview when he first became pope. The liberal media that distorted his words jumped right on him using the phrase “gay”, and made a point of telling anyone that would listen Francis was the first pope to ever refer to homosexuals as gay. They immediately started thinking of was on their side and in the last two years has given them no reason to think otherwise.
True enough. My point is he just should come out and say it, not reference it in such a way that is, unclear.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for the verses, but none of them correctly identify what was said or meant.
Sin is evil, regardless. There are things that are objectively wrong, and we are called to avoid those things. Homosexual acts, like any sexual act outside of marriage, are wrong. People struggle with them, like some struggle with adultery. They may be earnestly trying to avoid these sins, but like everybody, fails from time to time. Do we say, because they struggle with one serious sin, they are different from someone struggling with any other serious sin? NO! We encourage each other to repent, seek God’s Mercy, and avoid sin! We don’t judge a person’s heart, but can judge actions as to be avoided.
Simple example: We see a car speeding, and running red lights. Those things are objectively wrong, and should be avoided. What we didn’t know, was a man was racing his child, who was shot in a drive by, to the hospital.
Do we say, that person is a real jerk for speeding and running red lights. Must be very selfish. Or do we say, gosh, we shouldn’t drive like that. Big difference.
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