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To: BlueDragon; metmom; Arthur McGowan
So you all actually believe [what is] expressed in that reply?

Yes I do because it's been my experience. Everything that he said about Catholicism and everything he said about "Protestants" has been my experience with both (although I will grant you that the term "Protestant" as applied there is a bit nebulous.).

There may be many who experience what he writes about in the Catholic Church, outside the Church as well but that certainly isn't me. My experience outside the Church but in "Christianity" was a life full of Scripture study but no real transformation in my life, no real desire in me to change my ways because I was "saved" already, as Father described in 91.

If that's not your experience fine, in fact great! Praise God! But there is no way anyone can convince me that what Father wrote in 91 is false because I've lived both sides. For me to deny his words there would be akin to me also saying "The sky isn't really blue after all, I agree, because you have a better argument for a red sky".

273 posted on 01/22/2015 1:02:29 PM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven
Ok, yet I do not and was not speaking of my own self and my own experience --- alone.

There truly are a great cloud of witnesses whom can testify to Him being among and within themselves. Mileage may vary though -- as that saying goes, and there does appear to me there are those whom merely talk about it, rather than living it. One simply must be born again.

Your reply here indicates to me -- that before you converted to [Roman] Catholicism -- you were something of a lukewarm Christian, correct?

Or should it be better said, that all the Scripture study on it's own was not producing enough of a life-changing effect? That is understandable, for it is not by letter alone by which we are born again, but by the Spirit, as the "letter" of Scripture does indeed (interestingly enough) indicate. :^')

You said;

Interesting. Outside "the" Church you say?

Yet even by RCC reckonings, those whom are baptized (though under "Trinitarian" formula alone, none of the baptized "in the name of Jesus" business, no siree bob) belong to, or are "in" the Church [regardless of the erroneous ways of thinking which makes it out to be that the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical 'body' is the only 'body'].

I don't know who it was who was teaching you, that which for yourself resulted in "no real desire to change my ways" as you put it; yet to mistake your own personal experience as identical to a greater majority of other-than Roman Catholic Christians, to then further evaluate and transpose your own personal experience(?) onto all Roman Catholics other than yourself (as for alleged dedication to God) would be to make the same mistake which was first committed (mistaking your own inwards experience for being that of most others) in that yet second direction, for the wider evidence is abundant enough that many persons who are counted as members of various ecclesia including the RCC appear outwardly to be not much transformed into being and remaining of the Spirit, rather than seemingly much more consistently still worldly.

There is tension there for most anyone --just how to remain in this world, yet not "of" the fallen spirit of this world.

Many attempts have been made by persons to veritably pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, so to speak, and through harshness towards their own physical existence, subjugate (and castigate) their own selves into being acceptable unto God.

That methodology puts the cart before the horse.

Yet to continue on in life of remorselessness for unrepentant sin (the sin which, as Paul wrote still dwells within) assuming that one can do whatsoever is pleasing to one's own self, is to not drive (or ride within?) the "cart" much at all.

We do know that Scripture attributes Christ himself having said (John 6:44);

and in John 16:7-11;

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

That same Helper, the Spirit of truth is that which convicts us of our sin. Leaving us then nowhere to turn but to the light (if we don't just run away and hide from Him, like Adam did) allowing the Light to further illuminate inwardly within ourselves that which is opposed to Him.

As we journey in this realm in which we live, we must allow Him to (as He demonstrated) wash our feet (John 13)...for walking in this earthly realm in which we exist, it is unavoidable that any can avoid having their feet (which touch upon the earth?) being dirtied.

You seem to argue that all which Arthur wrote --- all the attributing motives included, were universally enough true -- for those having been true -- for yourself.

Yet that is the argument which you would have me accept -- that the sky is red (or blue, take your pick) in Cath-o-lic land -- but not elsewhere..?

I'm sorry, but my own personal experience and observations both, do preclude that there be can be any real truth to that, not to the overly simplistic manner in which that was presented -- as if there was a actual night/day difference.

294 posted on 01/22/2015 3:58:06 PM PST by BlueDragon ( Is it Islamophobic to oppose these beheadings?)
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