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To: wmfights

“8. None of the New Testament passages on the tribulation mention the church (Matt 24:15-31; 1 Thess 1:9-10; 5:4-9 ; Rev 4—19 ).”

The passages in Matthew and Revelation do not mention the church specifically entering the Great Tribulation or escaping it. In other words, it is purely speculative to assert the absence of a direct reference to the church as signifying the timing of the rapture. Further, the rapture or translation of living saints is not specifically identified in the Revelation timeline(s). In fact, no general resurrection of believers is specifically described in the events of Revelation.

As for the passages in First Thessalonians, the church is specifically admonished to expect tribulation but not wrath:

1 Thessalonians 1:6-10
And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

“16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from ‘the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Rev 3:10).”

Being kept from the Great Tribulation does not require being taken out of this world:

John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

(The same Greek word is used to describe the keeping of God in both passages. It could be translated similarly as “saved from” but does not have the same implication. A different word is used in describing our deliverance from wrath which is translated as “saves us from” wrath.)

“17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted upon the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Pet 2:6-9).”

Believers such as Noah and others do go through tribulation and persecution. What they escape is God’s wrath. God destroyed the world in Noah’s day with a flood, but will destroy the current world with fire as He did with Sodom in Lot’s day. This fiery destruction is sudden, surprising, and immediate when believers are raptured out, unlike the early days of Daniel’s seventieth week which Christ describes as the beginning of sorrows and not yet the end.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:3, 4, 7, 10
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” ...
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Nowhere in the Olivet discourse does Christ describe this sudden, cataclysmic, fiery destruction. The reason is that it follows the Great Tribulation and happens in the time known as the End, the Last Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the Day of God, and the Day of Wrath.

Note how Paul connects the Resurrection of believers to the time known as the “End”. And yet Christ describes the early events of Daniel’s seventieth week as happening before the “End”.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the END [emphasis added], when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Matthew 24:3, 6, 8, 13, 14
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the END [emphasis added] of the age?”
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the END [emphasis added] is not yet.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
But he who endures to the END [emphasis added] shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the END [emphasis added] will come.

The correct understanding of the timing of Christ return will be found in the balance of two sets of instructions:

1. watch and be ready
2. wait patiently

I am persuaded that preparing for a pre-wrath rapture is admonished in scripture. We should expect persecution and tribulation, and endure these patiently. We should anxiously await and expect deliverance by Christ’s return before His wrath is poured out on the earth.


12 posted on 01/11/2015 1:09:59 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner
"Being kept from the Great Tribulation does not require being taken out of this world:

John 17:15

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one."

So true, so true... I got goosebumps up both arms and the back of my neck when I read this in your post.... Thank you for posting it.

20 posted on 01/11/2015 3:43:54 PM PST by tired&retired
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To: unlearner

“The correct understanding of the timing of Christ return will be found in the balance of two sets of instructions:

1. watch and be ready
2. wait patiently”

And Pray Unceasingly!!!


21 posted on 01/11/2015 3:45:27 PM PST by tired&retired
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To: unlearner; wmfights
>>As for the passages in First Thessalonians, the church is specifically admonished to expect tribulation but not wrath:<<

Which leaves one to determine when that wrath begins. We see in Revelation when that wrath begins.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?"

They were speaking of the events of the seal judgements which were the first of the judgements.

The Greek word in the text of 1 Thessalonians 1 is ῥυόμενον (rhyomenon) which is Strong's word #4506.

4506 rhýomai (from eryō, "draw to oneself") – properly, draw (pull) to oneself; to rescue ("snatch up"); to draw or rescue a person to and for the deliverer.

We can compare that with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where we are "caught up" or "snatched up" in the twinkling of an eye.

>>Being kept from the Great Tribulation does not require being taken out of this world:<<

The passage of Revelation 3:10 does not say "kept from" in the Greek. It says "out from". The Greek word there is Strong's word #1537.

1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within.

So there once again we see the meaning of "out from" rather then "saved through" or "protected through". Scripture is consistent in the meaning of being taken out from among. So indeed the idea is that we will be taken out of this world since we also see in Revelation 3:10 that affliction is coming on the "whole world" or "all those" dwelling on the earth. God has never once in scripture subjected faithful followers to His wrath.

>>John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.<<

Look at that verse again. It says "from the evil one". To use that in reference to the rapture or "snatching away" is in error. It is not the "evil one" who's wrath the world is experiencing during what we refer to as the tribulation. Jesus is there simply talking of not taking people out of the world upon their conversion but that they would be kept from falling for the lies of Satan. That prayer has nothing to do with taking the faithful at the beginning of time of God's wrath on the "whole earth" and all it's inhabitants.

>>The same Greek word is used to describe the keeping of God in both passages. It could be translated similarly as “saved from” but does not have the same implication.<<

You were referring to John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10 but that doesn't work. You forgot to include the words around it. In John 17:15 it is "from" and in Revelation 3:10 it is "out of". I will admit I may have misread you intent on your above statement.

I will simply state that for the rest of your post the misunderstanding of "the day of the Lord" being simply one day is in error. It's a period of time.

32 posted on 01/12/2015 6:45:26 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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