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To: unlearner
I appreciate your feedback. I think you have a very good point about Christ waiting in Heaven until the time His enemies become His footstool. Yet I do not see any specific support from the passages in Hebrews that requires defining Revelation 19 as when this happens. I take it that this conclusion is more generally drawn from the idea that His second coming is a singular event.

Singular event, yes, I’d say that all right. I’ll try to break this down for you. On each point, I’m not going to look up all the passages, I think I am conversing with someone well versed in eschatological passages to know what I am talking about.

1. This is the book of Hebrews, to interpret it rightly we need to know the prophetic background of the Hebrews. They weren’t amillennialists, they had a future premill kingdom hope, as reflected in the OT and their inter-testament literature. Neither were they pretribs or prewraths, the OT and inter-testament literature shows they looked to a grand singular event that would close out this age while ushering in the age to come (an earthly Messianic kingdom).

2. One of the central eschatological themes developed in the inter-testament period was “this world (or age), and the world (age) to come.” Since this is cited in numerous places in the NT, Christ and the apostles must have continued in the same expectation. Heb. 6:5 alludes to it, it says, even in this age we have tasted of “the powers of the world/age to come.”

3. In the book of Hebrews, “the end” had a particular meaning to them, 6:11, for instance, amidst apostatizing, they were continually admonished to keep faith in Christ “stedfast unto the end.” What end? The end of “this world,” or this age.

4. The passages I have been citing from Hebrews, 9:28, 10:12,13, are in perfect agreement with my previous three points. Christ’s appearing “the second time,” and him not leaving heaven until his enemies are in position to be destroyed, to the readers of Hebrews was to occur at the “end” of this world/age. In one event, the closing out of this world while ushering in the next.

5. Hence, the passages I have been citing are not stand alone, they are in perfect agreement with the rest of Hebrews, with the commonly held end "of this world – beginning of the next” prophetic expectation of the Hebrews.

6. Is the prophetic expectation of the Hebrews one thing, while Rev. 19 presents something altogether other? I see no conflict, I’m quite confident the same expectation in Hebrews is what we see depicted in Rev. 19 – though in very apocalyptic language.

7. Not only Revelation, but the rest of prophetic scripture has the expectation I have tried to bring out in Hebrews.

8. Instead of reading NT prophecy through the prism of prewrath theory, try reading it as if they only believed in one event. It harmonizes very well.

35 posted on 01/05/2015 4:28:10 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas

Thanks for taking the time to present a well-thought out argument. It makes these discussions so much more interesting and a better learning experience.

“as reflected in the OT and their inter-testament literature”

It is certainly valuable to look at this background, but the scriptures prior to Paul do not discuss the rapture of living saints because it was a mystery revealed by Paul. It is the timing of this event that is most crucial because it has a practical, real-world impact on how we live and prepare ourselves for future events.

Further, it appears that Daniel was not properly interpreted by the generation of Christ’s earthly ministry because they did not recognize the “time of their visitation”. Particularly, a proper understanding of Daniel 9 would have caused them to be aware that Christ had to be there during this exact generation. Further, Christ alludes to the abomination of desolation as a future event and adds “let him who reads understand” indicating that they apparently did not understand it correctly. Paul further elaborates on Daniel’s prophecies and alludes to this in 2 Thessalonians 2. Revelation does also.

The OT also provides rich details about the coming Day of the Lord which is mentioned in Hebrews as well as by Paul, Peter and John.

I am assuming that we share a similar understanding of Daniel’s seventieth week, and that it is agreed that Christ return will occur simultaneously to the onset of the Day of the Lord. Can you indicate if this is not so?

But if it is so, how do you define the Day of the Lord and how it fits into the order of events described in Revelation?


40 posted on 01/05/2015 5:16:28 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: sasportas

Correction on my point three, to be more precise, “stedfast unto the end” is from 3:14 not 6:11.

Also, for a better reference of “the world to come” in Hebrews, see 2:5, where it states Christ, not angels, puts “in subjection the world to come.” This world, and the world to come had special prophetic meaning to those of NT times.


41 posted on 01/05/2015 5:24:07 PM PST by sasportas
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