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To: unlearner

I don’t believe the 2nd coming is multiple events, that’s where we differ.

Heb. 9:28 says when Christ appears it will be “the second time,” there won’t be a third time. In the next chapter, 10:12,13, it has Christ in heaven at the right hand “expecting” his enemies to be put under his feet. Which means he won’t be leaving heaven until then...to rapture anybody or anything else.

His enemies aren’t put under his feet until chapter 19 of Revelation, which assuredly does NOT take place before the tribulation, nor the middle of it.

Re: these two references in the book of Hebrews, 9:28 and 10:12,13, the writer of Hebrews must have believed the point in time that Christ descends from heaven to the earth to put his enemies under his feet would be when he appears “the second time.” No appearance, coming, or revelation until then.

The chronology of Revelation, chapter 19 leading into chapter 20, makes it clear enough that his descent from heaven to destroy his enemies (put under foot) in 19:11-21, would be that “second time” of Heb. 9:28, and “the last day” of John 6, which ushers in the millennial reign of Christ (chapter 20).

“The last day,” thus closes out this age while ushering in the next, the millennial. It doesn’t take two leaving heaven and descents from heaven (two 2nd comings), to accomplish this, one to resurrect and rapture the saints, another to defeat his enemies.

He descends from heaven, resurrects and raptures the saints on the way down, 1 Thess. 4, continues, now with his saints, to defeat his enemies at Armageddon.

Heb. 10:12,13, says he stays in heaven until his enemies are ready to be put under foot, chapter 19 of Revelation describes that very thing.


15 posted on 01/04/2015 6:54:27 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas

“I don’t believe the 2nd coming is multiple events, that’s where we differ.”

We can agree that “at His coming” designates His arrival, but I think we differ more in that you describe my view as having a second and third coming. You say that His second coming is not multiple events, but you include multiple events in your description:

1. Christ descends from heaven to the earth
2. resurrects and raptures the saints on the way down
3. defeat his enemies at Armageddon

Do you believe all of this happens in one calendar day that is the “last day”?

“His enemies aren’t put under his feet until chapter 19 of Revelation, which assuredly does NOT take place before the tribulation, nor the middle of it.”

But you argue that the battle of Armageddon happens AFTER He leaves Heaven. So I am not sure what distinction is being made by “waiting till His enemies are made His footstool”. At the point you mention, there is still the need to defeat anti-Christ and the Devil has not yet been cast into the lake of fire.

Paul describes the second coming this way:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe...

So, you are correct that He will put down His enemies when He comes the second time (and there is no third time). This cannot describe the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week. Nor can it be the middle, at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. However, it can be at the end of the Great Tribulation and beginning of the Day of wrath during which His holy angels execute judgments of flaming fire. Notice when these begin in Revelation.

Revelation 8:3-11
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

These are the judgments that immediately follow the recognition by the inhabitants of earth that the wrath of the Lamb has arrived. They embody Paul’s description of Christ returning with holy angels who inflict judgments of flaming fire.

Peter describes the Day of the Lord similarly:

2 Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Isaiah describes the day of the Lord this way:

Isaiah 2:10-12
Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—

Is this not His enemies being made His footstool?

Paul clarifies the order again here:

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

As I said before, I see no distinction made between the “day of the Lord”, the “last day” and the “end”. I believe these are all designations for the same thing, which is the time period immediately following the return of Christ. It is during this end time period that all rule and authority of men is brought into subjection to Christ.

When Christ returns He will be visible to the world, and they will mourn:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This mourning is what happens after the sixth seal:

Revelation 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

This also matches other passages regarding the day of the Lord, as I mentioned earlier in the Isaiah 2 passage. He describes this time in more detail in chapter 13, which I shall leave out for brevity. Joel says the same in chapters 1 and 3. I would highly recommend a study on the “day of the Lord”. This time follows the Great Tribulation and precedes the millennial kingdom. And Paul clearly designates its arrival as being simultaneous to the return of Christ in both epistles to the Thessalonians.

When believers are gathered out of the Great Tribulation and into the throne room of Heaven, it does not describe what people of earth see. We know they will see Christ when He returns. We know the Heavenly City which contains the throne of God and of the Lamb will descend from Heaven onto the earth:

Revelation 21:1-3, 22-23
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

We also know that the anti-Christ will be blaspheming those who dwell in Heaven:

Revelation 13:6
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

And there is another reference to those who dwell in Heaven here:

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Right now, there is apparently one and only one Man in Heaven, Christ Jesus. That is, He is the only Man there bodily. There are souls of men before the throne, but no bodies. Then this description changes in Revelation 7. Suddenly there are multitudes of people there. And from there we see men described as dwelling there.

Remember Christ’s words about His return:

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

What is this dwelling place?

Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

Clearly it is the city of God, the New Jerusalem.

So, those that come out of the Great Tribulation, enter the throne room of God which is in the New Jerusalem, which will visibly and physically descend to earth after the defeat of Christ’s enemies.

Remember, the author of Hebrews says this Heavenly city is a future dwelling place, not a present one. Yet, we have seen where there are people “dwelling” in Heaven during the time of God’s wrath.

My reason for pointing this out is to show how the rapture of believers to be with Christ and be in the place He has prepared is part of a singular second coming. This Heavenly city is on its way to earth. It may even be visible to those who dwell in the earth during the time of God’s wrath. Clearly anti-Christ acknowledges those dwelling in Heaven. (How does he know this apart from a prior visible rapture of believers?) And then, the wrath of God is poured out on the earth until the ultimate defeat of all of His enemies. Then the earth is rebuilt and ruled from the Heavenly city. Christ’s second coming includes all of these things and His reign on earth for a thousand years.

This is the singular second coming, and it arrives simultaneously to the arrival of the Day of the Lord, as described in Revelation 6:16, among other places.


16 posted on 01/04/2015 9:11:51 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: sasportas
>>Heb. 9:28 says when Christ appears it will be “the second time,” there won’t be a third time.<<

At the rapture Christ doesn't return to earth so your entire scenario of "second coming" doesn't work.

22 posted on 01/05/2015 5:30:18 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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