Posted on 12/28/2014 1:23:51 PM PST by wmfights
Only because it has been explained away!
Matt 24 is a record of Jesus' discourse with his BELIEVING disciples who happen to be Jewish. In verse 9 he states "...you will be hated by all nations because of me", the "you" refers to believers. Then in verse 15, 20, 23, 25 he uses the pronoun "you" again. Why in verse 9 is the you believers, and in 15, 20, 23 and 25 it is not?
Revelation 4-19 covers the Tribulation period, and makes references to those who "hold fast their testimony about Jesus" (12:17) "have the seal of God on their foreheads" (9:4) "saints" (13:7&10). And by the way, "the church" is not mentioned in Revelation at all!!!
1 Thess 5:4-9 refers to our not being "...in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." This follows verse 2 "...for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly..." If we won't be surprised by the Day of the Lord, it is NOT because we are not here, rather, it is because we know what to look for!
Incidentally, the informal fallcy argumentum ex silentio is not a good way to build one's theology!
They must also then spend pages more explaining why the plain reading of the scripture in the very passages that detail the event are incorrect.
And why not...It's clear in the O.T. that the elect are the Jews...
Isa_45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
I believe all of the references in the N.T. of the elect are Jews, or a remnant thereof...
1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Trump
σάλπιγξ
salpigx
sal'-pinx
Perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet: - trump (-et).
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
I believe the KJV has the correct translation since the Greek word more represents the sound a trumpet makes than the actual trumpet...And that definitely fits the narrative...
The 'church' is last heard of at the end of Rev. 3...Before the Tribulation starts...And what do we hear in Rev. 4:1??? COME UP HITHER (the Rapture)...
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
A trumpet...A voice that resembles a trumpet blasting; a Trump (of a trumpet)...Before the Tribulation...Imagine that...
1 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.>/i>
Every time the Bible gives any hint of timing regarding the rapture, it always is at the end of the tribulation! One must twist, turn and jump to explain away the plain meaning of these verses, based on the un-Biblical preconceived belief in the pre-trib rapture.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Paul is speaking of two separate events there; the gathering together (the Rapture) and the 2nd Coming...
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Someone told these people they missed the Rapture and that the next event they would see is Jesus coming to the Earth...So of course they were shook up...Paul re-assured them that first the man of sin had to be revealed and so not to worry about it...The gathering together (Rapture) would take place first...
:) on the length comment.
Shocking what wmfights has posted is a shorter version of Walvoods life work on this subject. Try reading one of his books on the subject! Four chapters on Biblical interpretation methodology before addressing the subject matter. So he is thorough. He also learned abridged pamphlets, as the 19th century dispensationalists used, caused much controversy and probably why Walvood leaves no stone unturned.
bttt thanks
The chosen ones are being called to the truth.
May I suggest at the bottom of each part that you put links to all your previous threads or in a post? Thanks.
“Christ is not speaking to the disciples as representatives of Judaism, which rejected Christ, everything he said was said to, and for, the church.”
which is why in Matt and Mark the parable of the vine-growers is told to the pharisees. The vine-growers are destroyed and the vineyard given to others.
I prefer the entire articles as you have done and for the reason you’ve given.
I recall a time when i wanted to know the difference between the two positions in order to arrive what I believe the Lord wanted me to understand.
Interesting that my study on pre-trib went along smoothly and understandable...But soon after beginning the post-trib position things got very complicated and a lot of stretching and jumping hoops to get to where they try and take you. ....furthermore it seemed they were more intent on disproving pre-trib then presenting their case for post. So I changed study several times because I thought perhaps it was just the study gide I was using. But to no avail...they all seemed to be exactly as troublesome to follow and discern as the first.
Needless to say I am completely convinced in the pre-trib position and content this is so.
....”the purpose of the tribulation is to purge and judge Israel and to punish and destroy Gentile power”.....
This is also my understanding.....
BTW Interesting thread.
The resurrection is a main key. If, as in pre-tribulationism, the dead in Christ rise first at the rapture, then Revelation 20:5 is a lie.
In it is the sentence, “This is the first resurrection.”
When? Who? It is explained in verses 1 through 4. If pre-trib is correct, verse 5 should say, “This is the second resurrection.” Also, and a friend will be upset, all those who died before the tribulation do not reign with Messiah on earth. Also verse 5, “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” This resurrection is everyone else ever born.
Phrases are very important, they should never be skipped. Every jot and tittle is there for a reason.
Just thought of something cool. In Matthew and Mark Jesus that “[AFTER] the tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars fall from heaven...”
the moon can’t give off reflected light because its light source is dark. We won’t be able to see the moon. I’m thinking a bunch of asteroids between the sun and earth? Just guessing, of course.
Also, Jesus’ way of speaking makes the sun a source of light but not the moon?
scratch the asteroids, it’s probably all the angels and the armies of heaven. Imagine a black night and the source of light is Jesus.
Never read 1 Thessalonians without 2 Thessalonians. The second book is written specifically for those worried about the return.
God will not judge the righteous with the unrighteous....we can refer directly to Noah....also Lot being taken out of Sodom.... and He will do it for us.
referring to 1 Thess.5:4..... Paul wrote that the Church is removed before the day of darkness so that the Day of the Lord will not overtake them like a thief in the night..... Since it initiates the judgment, God will remove the Church from the darkness ‘not keep them through it’ as some believe.
A quick look at the context of Romans 8:33 clearly indicates the elect ARE NOT the Jews:
Roman 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Part of the issue using Revelation 20:5 to determine timing of the translation (rapture), is that in Revelation 19, before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ we see the wedding feast with Christ.
Revelation 19:
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’”
Then later in the same Chapter (Rev 19)
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
So just from the text of Revelation, if one takes it plainly, the marriage supper for the Bride and the marshalling of Christ's Army happen before He touches down to bring judgment as conquering King.
Now back to Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Now literally taken, the above is taken as a very specific group. It is a group who had a direct dealing in not taking the mark, and were witnesses for Christ against the beast.
Then we have those who.. "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." Well, just in Revelation 19 Jesus did a lot of smiting and destroying of unbelievers and followers of the beast. So here in Revelation 20:5ff it is stated they stay dead until the 1,000 years are done. Then we see them again at the GWT judgment. It's all there in the chapter.
So putting aside pre/post trib flame wars, the Scripture tells us BEFORE Christ comes again as conquering King, He will have His bride with him "arrayed in fine linen."
Now Biblically speaking based on the above there are only three possibilites for the translation of the church.
1. Before the tribulation: based on the notion of not wrath but rapture
2. Mid trib: based on first 3.5 years of tribulation as opposed to 'The Great Tribulation' latter 3.5 years; and/or the timing of the last Trump (i.e. 7th of 7th Trumpet judgments).
3. It happens immediately before Christ's second coming. Meaning we meet Him in the air, we have the marriage supper, and then mount up and join Christ as part of his Second Coming host.
So really the "problem" of Revelation 20:5 resides with #3 above and not #2 or #1.
then Revelation 20:5 is a lie
Finally, the above is such a non-starter to a conversation. And no I am not a dispensationalist, but do see their view as the most consistent. What I mean about that is, they actually lay out logical event milestones. Where the Amils just hand wave as one whole event or allegory for the ages. Now the post-trib millennials have in recent years given some great effort and I do very much respect their approach. However, the sniping has to stop as we are The Body of Christ.
So you dredged up one verse to prove your point...
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Here, the elect appears to be Jesus,
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Here, we can see the elect are a remnant of the Jews...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
You'll remember that Paul dressed and acted like a Jew to win over the Jews...
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
There are even 'elect' angels...
1Ti_5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Again, Jesus is the 'elect'...
1Pe_2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
There Peter is preaching to an elect lady...Peter's mission is to preach to Jews...The lady is Jewish...
The point is; just as in the timing of the Rapture as well as who the elect is, you can't just take a verse or two and run with it...There is plenty of scripture that show that the Rapture is not post-trib or mid-trib...You have to be able to discount those scriptures and put them in their right place before you can just ignore and trash them...
It's clear to me that you didn't check any of the scripture references in the article...
ἐκλεκτός eklektos: From ἐκλέγομαι (G1586)
Vs.
ἐκκλησία ekklēsia: From a compound of ἐκ (G1537) and a derivative of καλέω (G2564)
Which is an interesting discussion in itself. Of which when we look at Revelation 2-3 we see attributes different from those posed as 'elect' in the OT prophecies. Which is why one must look at how the churches, ekklēsia, are addressed in Revelation as opposed to the term 'elect.' Context, as you pointed out well has great meaning.
amen, I agree. we are sanctified and protected, but not removed, until Christ’s return.
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