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To: Petrosius
Established by whom? By the church established by Jesus Christ and governed by the apostles and their successors, the bishops. Do not try to avoid this truth by speaking in the passive voice.

Did you actually read all of what i wrote? The church did not establish itself upon its own authority, while its Scriptural basis was due to men discerning writings as being of God long before a church of Rome would presume it was essential for this.

And if most of what it in the Bible was established (if not universally) as being of God before Rome, then certainly the rest could follow.

Meanwhile it took Rome over 1400 years after the last book was penned to issue an infallible/indisputable complete canon. Do not try to avoid this truth by speaking in the propagandist voice.

Is your argument that if we agree with Rome about the NT canon then we should assent to her in all else?

It seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium.

96 posted on 12/18/2014 8:09:08 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
The church did not establish itself upon its own authority, while its Scriptural basis was due to men discerning writings as being of God long before a church of Rome would presume it was essential for this.

Of course the church did not establish itself upon its own authority. Rather, it was established by Jesus Christ and given authority by him. The establishment of the local churches was done by those in authority. The division of the apostolic authority between the three orders of episcopoi, presbuteroi and deaconoi was done by the authority given to the church by Jesus Christ. What we find in Scripture is a record of this action by the church, not an instruction given to the church by Scripture.

Meanwhile it took Rome over 1400 years after the last book was penned to issue an infallible/indisputable complete canon.

You make multiple errors. The first, common among Protestants, is to identify the Catholic Church only with the church of Rome. Rather, the Catholic Church consists of the world-wide church in union with Rome. This includes hundreds of local churches with their own bishops. The second is a misunderstanding of the working of the Magisterium of the church. The Ordinary Magisterium is the universal day to day teaching of the church. The Extraordinary Magisterium, the decrees of popes and councils, is only convoked when the teachings in the Ordinary Magisterium are called into question. As to the question of the canon of the Bible, it was accepted since the 4th century when the universal church accepted the list proposed by the North African councils under St. Augustine. This list was explicitly accepted by Pope Damasus I in the local Council of Rome in 382. The Council of Trent only restated what the Catholic Church had already accepted because the canon was questioned by the Protestants.

104 posted on 12/19/2014 5:16:11 AM PST by Petrosius
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