Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[MamaB]

I have never been Catholic no matter what you and others think. Since I have learned so much on here, I never want to set foot in a catholic church. The Catholics believe a lot of nonsense. I will trust the Bible and my Southern Baptist minister. He got his dr’s in ancient languages such as Greek, Hebrew, etc. He knows what he teaches and teaches directly from the Bible. I know that because we follow along in our Bible. He has been our minster since 1978. He s the best!

[annalex]

That passage at most explains that sometimes faith alone can count for righteousness. The example though is of Abraham who by faith crossed the desert. But crossing the desert is works. So this is not a doctrinal statement: it is there to prove that Jewish rituals did not save Abraham, but his faith did. In contrast, the statement in James 2 is from the passage entirely devoted to this question and St. James decides the Protestant position is heretical and teaches directly against it.

[Heart-Rest]

"Methodists weren't one of the protesting groups....ever. Didn't arise because of it, didn't continue because of it."

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Are you a member of the United Methodist Church?    They (the UMC) call themselves Protestants -- see the following links for proof of that:

• The "Foundry United Methodist Church" in Washington, D.C. has the following on their web site: "The Methodist branch of Protestantism traces its roots back..."

• The main "United Methodist Church" web site explains how they were formed from earlier groups having "Theological traditions steeped in the Protestant Reformation..."

• "The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States" lists the "United Methodist Church" as #2 on their list - (Source "The Christian Post")

[annalex]

Catholicism believes mary was immaculately conceived...yet their own apologists admit this cannot be substantiated in Scripture

You switched the subject. The Immaculate conception is not spelled out in the scripture, but it does not contradict the scripture. The key Protestant doctrine of salvation by faith alone, however is not simply extraneous to the scripture, the scripture teaches that it is false (James 2:17-26). Sola Scriptura is not anywhere in the Bible, but the idea of Sola Scriptura is that everything important to faith is in the Bible. If that were true, Sola Scriptura would be taught by the Scripture. It is not. That is a another Protestant contradiction with the scripture, and these two are the foundational falsehoods of Protestantism.

[Heart-Rest]

"Added to the original Greek? Seriously?"

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We don't have any of the original Greek manuscripts, CynicalBear, only manuscripts of copies made much later than the originals.    The earliest of those manuscripts do not contain that phrase, and scholars generally agree that it was not in the original Gospel of Matthew, but added later by copyists for liturgical reasons.

(Go to this Catholic web page, "Who Added The Doxology?", or to this Protestant web page, "The Lord's Prayer: A Guide for the Perplexed [Doxology]", to learn how that "Doxology" was added later to the actual scriptural text.)    (Many other web sites contain that same explanation about that addition, and they can be found and studied by searching for Lord's Prayer Doxology on Google.)

[annalex]

We have no examples of praying to saints in Heaven

That is not entirely true: the Revelation teaches that the prayers of saints are delivered to God (Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4).

Besides, most saints died for their faith after the Holy Scripture was written.

[Heart-Rest]

"Do you not understand the difference between to and for?"

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Do you not understand the difference between "prayer" that is worship, and "prayer" that is not worship?

Do you not understand the difference between "praise" that is worship, and "praise" that is not worship?

Do you not understand the difference between "speech" that is worship, and "speech" that is not worship?

Do you not understand the difference between "bowing down" that is worship, and "bowing down" that is not worship? (See Exodus 18:7 for a quick example of the latter.)

Do you not understand the difference between a "friendship embrace", and a "marital embrace"?

A person has to learn to make honest and truthful distinctions between different things, and not try to falsely blur over the truth of those distinctive differences.

"Praise" can be worship, but "praise" does not mean "worship".

Some praise is worship, and some is not.

For example, when you applaud after your kid's class finishes singing a song in the school talent show, you are praising them (but you are not worshipping them).    Likewise, when your kid brings home an "A" and you praise him or her for earning that "A", you are not worshipping them.

In the same way, the words "pray/prayer" do not mean "worship" either (in all of their different and distinct definitions).

"Prayer" can be worship, and "prayer" also might not be worship, depending on how the word is being used.    "Pray" can mean "to entreat or implore" or "to make a request in a humble manner", or it can also mean to worship, depending on the context in which it is being used.

("Speech" might be worship, and "speech" also might not be worship, depending on how that word is being used also.    The same holds true for "bowing down".)

It is essential that you know the context, and how a word is being used, or you will derive the wrong meaning from any sentence, in any language.

"Praying" to Mary, or to other saints, is never worship for faithful Catholics.    Anyone who tells you it is is either ignorantly mistaken or flat-out lying.

These links should help you to begin to understand the difference between how those words are truly being used in different contexts.   You really should read them.

• "Is Prayer Synonymous With Worship?"

• "Why do Catholics pray to Mary?"

• "To Pray: A definition. Does it mean to worship?"

• "Proof that Catholics clearly teach to worship only God and not to worship Mary"

[Heart-Rest]

"I did a count and find that you have posted around 100 comments since this morning. Isn’t that quite enough?"

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Have you ever heard of the technical term some techies use, "Digital Diarrhea"?    (Google it.)

[WVKayaker]

Sola Scriptura and Sole Fide are both contrary to scripture.

Maybe in the perverted minds of indoctrinated (read catechised) Roman Catholics, but in the Scriptures, you will find both to be fully expressed.

Christians rely on His Holy Spirit to illuminate the Scriptures and write them on our hearts, not just our minds. Anyone that has been filled with His Spirit will be guided to the Truth. Anyone following after mere mortals, will end up in the pits of Hell!

The constant genuflection towards Rome and Catholicism will only end up badly...

1 Corinthians 4: 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. ...

...Hebrews 4: 12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” ...

Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

[Syncro]

Everything I said about Christian history was 96.356 percent correct. Approximately.

You were pretty close to that, good effort.

Thanks for the offer of prayers.

Please pray to the Father God with the help of the Holy Spirit and in Jesus’ name.

That is how I will pray for you as soon as I hit the post button.

[Syncro]

Thank you.

[Springfield Reformer]

we would welcome you BACK TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH where you belong.

There was no Roman Catholic church for the first 150-200 years after Christ's earthly ministry.  We were all just Christians back then.  Rome created schism by asserting powers it didn't have and doctrines it couldn't back up with Scripture. Rome is the schism.  Not us.  We invite you to come back to just being Christian.  It's where we all belong.

Peace,

SR

[Syncro]

Catholicism is christianity...it is true, complete, and without error.

Perfect, and as sinless as Mary?

OK, Catholicism is christianity. Fine. Jesus started Christianity. A lot of difference.

Jesus founded His church, made up of all believers...(it's been explained to you many times so this is the short version)...NOT Catholicism.

we don't hate you, we would welcome you BACK TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH where you belong.

That's wack. Christians can't go BACK to something they were never a part of.

Catholics have caused themselves to be separated brethren. Full circle.

Come to Jesus. Come as you are, He will change you into a fine Christian if you give yourself to Him.

[Springfield Reformer]

There is evidence the doxology is original to the inspired text.  John Gill informs us that it resembles an already existing Jewish prayer form.  This is backed up by the fact that the expression appears in the Didache, very recognizably the same formula as found in Matthew.  We know the Didache comes from about the end of the first century, so this is strongly suggestive that the doxology was being used in the immediate post-apostolic era because that's how Jesus taught the apostles to pray.

As for manuscript evidence, Sinaiticus and Vaticanis have long been suspect, even though physically older than most other manuscripts (though there are fragments much older than even these), because they are of Alexandrian origin, meaning they may have survived as long as they did, not because they were the preferred variant, but because the dry air of the area, combined with disuse, allowed these manuscripts to survive, despite being inferior texts.  The active text, that which was being most fervently used by the church at large, was the Byzantine text form, and that textform has the doxology.  The number of manuscripts containing it versus not is, IIRC, something like 10 to 1.  

But if that's not enough, keep in mind the reading with the doxology can also be found in the third oldest Bible, Codex Washintonianus, which dates to the 4th or 5th century, making it a near contemporary of Sinaiticus and Vaticanis, the difference being it is part of the traditional collection of texts supporting the Byzantine/Majority textform.  There are also Patristic uses of the Matthian doxology, in Origen, Tertullian, Cyprian, I believe.  

So terycarl, whatever else one might conclude, this means it is not a Protestant invention, unless you want to make the named patristic writers, the Didache, and the third oldest Bible out to be Protestant products.

In any event, I see no reason to doubt it's authenticity.

Peace,

SR

[xzins]

Yes, Vlad, the ELCA has the magic word “Lutheran” in their name.

So far as ‘sola fide’ is concerned, you have already given assent to the idea that Catholics must be believers. It is not possible to be a Catholic and be an unbeliever is it?

[xzins]

“Methodists” and the use of the “Protestant” word.

You are simply acknowledging the morphing of the word ‘protestant’ to cover all non-Catholic denominations.

That is in error.

Methodists are not one of the protesting groups that brought about the Reformation. In fact, they didn’t exist for 200 years after that in any form whatsoever.

As I’ve already stated, they exist mostly because of protest directed and King George by the American colonies. I guess we could add that Wesley’s little charismatic-type movement within Anglicanism in 1700’s England was also a protest against the deadness of that particular church.

[Elsie]

Fathers of the Church on the Eucharist

Do NOT go beyond what is written. The FLESH profiteth nothing...

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You guys can go ahead and eat your little wafer and sip your wine; hoping that a miracle occurs and it really DOES turn into the things your church has taught you.

I'll continue to REMEMBER Jesus the way the bible said to do.

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"First let the children eat all they want," he told her...

[Elsie]

St. Paul called people "father".

For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel"

This is the same a CALLED?

[Elsie]

Again, you have failed every single time anyone here has ever asked you to post even one verse that actually teaches sola scriptura or sola fide. Every, single time.

Again you IGNORE the clear warning in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 4:6

Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit,

so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."

Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.