Posted on 12/12/2014 8:42:11 AM PST by Gamecock
Darryl Hart has a thought-provoking post today on Rick Warren’s recent comments about what Rome and Protestants have in common.
Warren’s comments are a sterling reminder of the importance of knowing our church history. Yes, Christians of all the major traditions receive the biblical and catholic truths of the Holy Trinity and the two natures of Christ. Yes, confessional Protestants are committed to the protection of unborn humans and the affirmation of a creational order for sex and marriage—is Pope Francis committed to the latter?—but we share these commitments with Mormons, Jews, and even some atheists. Obviously, these concerns, as important as they are, are hardly a basis for making the sorts of sweeping generalizations that Warren expressed in the interview.
It is also true that we understand those biblical, catholic truths and their implications rather differently than Rome does, a fact that Warren ignores. No one who knows what Rome teaches accuses her of confessing that Mary has been deified. Roman dogma is offensive enough without embellishment. Rome confesses that Mary is mediatrix, an adjutrix (helper). The very notion that anyone other than Jesus hears our prayers and intercedes for us is nothing less than blasphemy against the Son of God, about whom Scripture says, “For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus… (1 Tim 2:5). There are no other mediators. Just Jesus. Hebrews 9:15 says, “Therefore he is the Mediator of a new covenant…” (Heb 9:15). He is “the Mediator of a new covenant…” (Heb 12:24). Nowhere does Holy Scripture teach, imply, or even vaguely suggest that the blessed virgin Mary was ever to be a mediatrix. It is blasphemy against Christ to suggest that she is because it clearly implies that Jesus’ work and person are insufficient. They are not. They could not be.
We heartily confess, with Chalcedon (451) that Mary was the God bearer (θεοτόκος) but Jesus is God. He was in the beginning with God and is God (John 1:1). Mary is not. The earliest Fathers knew nothing about Mary as mediatrix. The notion that Mary was anything more than God bearer was hotly controverted in the medieval church. The magisterial, confessional Protestants, rejected the sectarian doctrine of Mary as mediatrix. That’s not a small thing. We also reject the sectarian dogma that other deceased Christians hear prayers or intercede for us on the same grounds. There is no other name given under heaven (Acts 4:12). None. Rev. Warren, says, “”When you understand what they mean by what they’re saying, there’s a whole lot more commonality.” That’s simply and categorically false. Read the teaching of the Roman catechism and the other magisterial documents. I have. It’s quite clear and it’s not at all clear that Warren has or that he has understood what Rome teaches.
He says, “Now there’s still real differences, no doubt about that. But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.” Again, the question has never been “who loves Jesus.” This was one of the red herrings of the Evangelicals and Catholics Together movement. Indeed, there are real differences:
So, yes, there are real areas of disagreement. Confessional Protestants understand these to be fundamental to the Christian faith, so basic that we charged the Roman communion of departing from the catholic faith and of becoming a sect.
Warren’s comments illustrate the importance of having a robust doctrine of creation and providence. Absent those, Warren’s only recourse is to minimize the theological and ecclesiastical differences between Protestants and Rome. He knows of no other way to make common social, cultural cause with them. Here is where distinguishing between spheres or recognizing God’s twofold kingdom in the world helps us to recognize what is, in God’s general providence, common (not neutral) to believers and unbelievers or common to citizens in the common cultural or civil sphere and what is not. Confessional Reformed Christians need not cash in the Reformation in order to make common social, cultural, or civil cause with those with whom we have deep theological and ecclesiastical disagreements.
Second, they illustrate why it is so important for all Christians to have a basic knowledge of church history. Were Warren better educated in church history, were he to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other more recent declarations, in light of the history of the church he would know how idiosyncratic, how novel, and utterly Tridentine Rome really is. The truth for all those who are tempted to swim the Tiber (covert to Rome) is that there is no “Rome Sweet Home.” There are as many “Romes” as there are converts. The ex-evangelical converts have their version of Rome. The liberals have their version of Rome. It’s a Babylon of competing visions only apparently unified. All one need to do is read Darryl Hart’s running commentary on contemporary Romanism to know how deeply divided Romanists really are. To paraphrase Obi Wan, Rome is not the church you’re looking for. The second-century Apostolic Fathers would be horrified by Rome as would most of the church through the 13th century. When the Protestants rejected Romanist innovations they were not rejecting the ancient Christian faith, they were seeking to recover it.
The vast majority of protestants never set foot in the front door of a church. Some just because they don’t feel like it’s necessary to get to heaven and that’s exactly what they’ll tell you. Hundreds of thousands sit in front of a TV set and watch televangelists instead of going to church. The reason? The shyster tells them they don’t need to go to church, to just watch him and send their money to him. Catholics have an obligation of attending Mass each Sunday. If they don’t attend it’s a sin and has to be confessed before they go up for communion in a state of grace. Of course some ignore this requirement, but God knows who they are. But that is the rules, something protestants know nothing about because they have no rules.
And the number of Catholics come from parish records.
The beauty of true Christianity is that God has ALWAYS had an elect remnant that remained true to the faith. Many of these believers, like many of the faithful ancient Jews, were persecuted and executed by the religious hierarchies of their day that cared more about power, influence and wealth than truth. Those who backed the Reformation were not all former Roman Catholics, but they WERE among the elect that remained faithful to the true faith because they followed Christ and not men.
There are almost as many errors in that one sentance than there are words! LOL.
You can have him!
You're stuck with him! He's yours - mascara and all.
The same thing you guys do when a Roman Catholic converts to Protestantism?
Except in cults, which RCs act more like who anxiously look to men as liberals look to their leader.
VAST majority?
Got stats to back that up?
Some just because they don’t feel like it’s necessary to get to heaven and that’s exactly what they’ll tell you.
I don't think it's necessary to go to church but I go anyway.
This is likely to be news to you, but sometimes people go because they WANT to go, not because they have to go, because they're threatened with mortal sin and damnation if they don't go.
Hundreds of thousands sit in front of a TV set and watch televangelists instead of going to church.
Links to stats on that one as well? Proof that they don't watch televangelists instead of going to church rather than in addition to going to church?
Catholics have an obligation of attending Mass each Sunday. If they don’t attend it’s a sin and has to be confessed before they go up for communion in a state of grace.
That's bondage right there. Don't go to church and you are threatened with hell.
And the number of Catholics come from parish records.
Which probably still include people like myself who haven't attended that parish in years. Because we've been told that once a Catholic, always a Catholic so to get their numbers, the Catholic church counts people who don't even attend any more. That's deceptive of the church to include all those people in its head count to inflate their numbers.
Anti-Semitism as is a race/DNA of people or anti-Jewish as in the theology of rejecting Christ, the Logos, practical reason, the natural, moral order of the universe. Don’t get baited with hijacked language.
Without conceding your first two points, your third is patently false.
Your problem is and always has been you have a problem dealing with the truth of Christianity and the Catholic Church. In that regard you are exactly like the rest of the Catholic haters on FR. If Rick Warren ever converted to Catholicism it would be for the same reason anyone else converts. They want to be part of the faith started by Jesus himself, the only faith that contains the fullness of the Christian faith.
Pinging Daniel1212 to provide actual statistics, instead of NKP’s opinion posted here.
While we are waiting for actual statistics for Protestant church attendance, you wrote this...
“Of course some ignore this requirement, but God knows who they are. But that is the rules, something protestants know nothin”
I would point out that “some” in Belgium is more than 80% of Catholics who are totally uninvolved. I’ve posted that statistic at least twice for you.
How are they considered members in your count?? If included, what does membership mean?
Wow...you might want to extract your foot from your mouth
In the USA 24 % of Catholics attend mass weekly
http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html
Certainly explains why so many Papist houses of worship are being turning Muzzie.
Don't know much about Gothard, and McPherson was too flaky to be much of a cult leader, but White was. What i was referring to was uncritically anxiously looking to men as if they had unique powers, and none of the Baptist or non-denom churches i have been or gone to/go to after leaving RC ones 30 years ago were like that. If so, i would have left.
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