Thank you again for kind reply and the opportunity to study. I assumed that by saying that only the body is mortal that you were stating that the soul is immortal. I stated some proofs that the "soul" is not immortal. Sorry if I misread that.
So when you speak of "immortal souls" to negate the truth of Scripture that death is NOT the cessation of all activity, awareness and consciousness, you are still not being precise with the language of Scripture.
Well scripture certainly seems to indicate that death is exactly that...
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.
In fact death is compared to sleep multiple times...a cessation of conscious, aware activity.
Eph_5:14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."
1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Co_15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
There are many many more examples. All in all the clear message seems to be that we sleep in our graves until the return of Christ at which time, if we're Christian, are resurrected to eternal life.
Your unstated assumptions seem to be that 'soul' equals physical life, and that 'life' refers to 'existence' while 'death' refers to 'nonexistence.' Yet the New Testament describes unbelievers while they were still existing in this world as 'dead' and believers as receiving 'life' at the moment of regeneration:
I think we're operating within different frameworks. When I see the term "eternal life" and apply it to Christians I see a couple of things. First that eternal life is PROMISED to Christians and that true eternal lie occurs at the end of our faith, at the return of Christ:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
Notice the language here. A hope, an inheritance that can't be corrupted (immortal), RESERVED in heaven. Something not yet here.
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Salvation is revealed in the last time, at the return of Christ.
1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
1Pe 1:7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
The end of faith is the salvation of our souls...our lives. Notice that faith (at least here) is the faith that we will be given eternal life, or salvation at the return of Christ.
And if it were just here that would be one thing. But it's repeated multiple times in much the same manner throughout scripture. One more example:
Luk 18:29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
Luk 18:30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.
So true life, eternal lie, is a future promise to Christians.
Your position (if I understand correctly) is that this eternal life is referring simply to the body and that our soul or spirit (your terms) are different matters. That they are in some way already eternal. We've seen that the english word "soul" is not immortal. In the new testament scriptures the word most often translated "soul" is the greek psuche (transliterated). It's the breath of life in both man and animal...basically the equivalent of the hebrew word. Mostly it's translated as soul. Sometimes as "life". But it's not eternal or immortal.
As for spirit, in the new testament the word most often translated as spirit is "pneuma" (again transliterated). It's used in reference to the holy spirit as well as for unclean spirits, or demons. In other words, it usually denotes a type of existence, a different type of "body" if you will then our mortal flesh. On a different plane, one which is invisible to us in general. Pneuma can also refer to wind..which denotes something of which it's effects can be felt but which in general is invisible to us.
In scripture, as far as I can tell, man never has a "spirit" other than the one given to Christians....the holy spirit.
Again it goes back to what Paul said:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
I also wanted to address "eternal life". In the verses you quoted where it mentioned "life", the term used was "zoe" which is life in general. However none of them say that Christians have ETERNAL life...or aionious zoe. It's an important distinction. Basically the scriptures are again affirming that we have eternal life promised to us. And that promise will be kept by God.
Somehow somewhere along the way modern Christianity has gotten the idea that we are already immortal..whether it be a soul or spirit. We do have a "soul" but it's not immortal. We CAN have a spirit..either the holy spirit of God OR possibly an unclean spirit that resides in us. But we are not MADE a an eternal spirit until the return of Christ.
Anyways I know this is long and yet incomplete so I apologize for that....
Where is Christ now? When Paul refers to our body as an "earthly house" and a "tent", and says that while we are at home inside our bodies, we are absent from the Lord, and that he would rather depart and be with Christ, does that mean that Christ is in the ground where Paul would go to his grave?
Paul also said he knew someone who was caught up to the third heaven said that he did not know if the man who had this experience was in his body or out of his body. Was Paul on drugs or something?
When Jesus spoke of the abode of the dead and people there after death retaining their cognitive faculties such that they could recognize and speak to one another, was he speaking of something that had no connection to reality, was false and contrary to Scripture? Even if you think what Jesus taught in Luke 16 is merely figurative, or representative of something else, would Jesus teach something using an absurd example that had no connections with reality, was false and contrary to Scripture? That would be like Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a rock that a man threw in a cave and it grew up and became the greatest of all camels.
I think we're operating within different frameworks. When I see the term "eternal life" and apply it to Christians I see a couple of things. First that eternal life is PROMISED to Christians and that true eternal lie occurs at the end of our faith, at the return of Christ:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
Notice the language here. A hope, an inheritance that can't be corrupted (immortal), RESERVED in heaven. Something not yet here.
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Salvation is revealed in the last time, at the return of Christ.
There are aspects of salvation that are past, present and future. The last time and the resurrection of our bodies are aspects of our salvation that are in the future. However, Scripture also speaks of eternal life in the present, as a present possession.
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I also wanted to address "eternal life". In the verses you quoted where it mentioned "life", the term used was "zoe" which is life in general. However none of them say that Christians have ETERNAL life...or aionious zoe. It's an important distinction. also wanted to address "eternal life". In the verses you quoted where it mentioned "life", the term used was "zoe" which is life in general. However none of them say that Christians have ETERNAL life...or aionious zoe. It's an important distinction.
These do:
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 11:25-261881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
25 ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
26 και πας ο ζων και πιστευων εις εμε ου μη αποθανη εις τον αιωνα πιστευεις τουτοΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:361881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
36 ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτονΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 5:241881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
24 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ο τον λογον μου ακουων και πιστευων τω πεμψαντι με εχει ζωην αιωνιον και εις κρισιν ουκ ερχεται αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωηνΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 6:471881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
47 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εχει ζωην αιωνιονΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:281881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
28 καγω διδωμι αυτοις ζωην αιωνιον και ου μη απολωνται εις τον αιωνα και ουχ αρπασει τις αυτα εκ της χειρος μουΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ Α΄ 5:11-131881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
11 και αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια οτι ζωην αιωνιον εδωκεν ο θεος ημιν και αυτη η ζωη εν τω υιω αυτου εστιν
12 ο εχων τον υιον εχει την ζωην ο μη εχων τον υιον του θεου την ζωην ουκ εχει
13 ταυτα εγραψα υμιν ινα ειδητε οτι ζωην εχετε αιωνιον τοις πιστευουσιν εις το ονομα του υιου του θεου
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In scripture, as far as I can tell, man never has a "spirit" other than the one given to Christians....the holy spirit.
I guess Paul didn't get the memo:
1 Corinthians 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Cordially,