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To: boatbums
But God says:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Is anyone disputing this? Of course salvation comes through the grace of God and Christ's atoning death. I don't know any Christians who would argue this.

But what about the hard case of the person who is ignorant of Christ and His Church, through no fault of his own. Is he damned? If so, how can that be reconciled with God's nature as Justice Itself?

What do you say, in your interpretation of Scripture?

Catholics recognize that God is Justice Itself, and cannot damn a person because of his ignorance of Christ.

If that's what you think, you should seriously examine your belief.

From the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

848

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


2,458 posted on 10/19/2014 9:31:01 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; boatbums
>>This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:<<

OK, so let me get this straight. Someone doesn't know Christ but lives a good life is already saved. So Christ tells His apostles to go out and proclaim His gospel of salvation. They go out and tell these people that if they don't accept Christ they will now be sent to hell. The people say no we already are going to heaven so they reject this story. Now they are going to hell. Did I get the gist of that?

2,460 posted on 10/19/2014 9:53:18 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; boatbums; metmom; caww; CynicalBear; Elsie
From Jesus - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)

From the Catechism - “Outside the Church there is no salvation”


Hmmm... Which should I choose...?

One thing Catholics should consider. Catholicism is not necessarily Jesus’ Church. Perhaps it's the remnants of poor, erroneous teachings passed down from a group of believers who fell away and perverted the gospel.

I will hedge my bet and follow Jesus.

2,466 posted on 10/19/2014 11:16:17 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
But what about the hard case of the person who is ignorant of Christ and His Church, through no fault of his own. Is he damned? If so, how can that be reconciled with God's nature as Justice Itself? What do you say, in your interpretation of Scripture? Catholics recognize that God is Justice Itself, and cannot damn a person because of his ignorance of Christ. If that's what you think, you should seriously examine your belief.

Don't FRoman Catholics often scold others for "limiting God" by questioning how Mary can possibly "hear" the prayers of millions simultaneously? So why is it okay to think it's not possible for God to reward those who diligently seek him?

I won't give "my" interpretation of Scripture, but simply post what Scripture actually DOES say concerning the "ignorant savages" Roman Catholicism says are ignorant of Christ.

We already know that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins (Eccl. 7:20). We also are told, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23) as well as, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." (Lev. 17:11).

Whether a person acknowledges it or not, we ALL need a Savior, a Redeemer who saves us from the penalty of our sins. Is it truthful to say a person has NO knowledge of God or his need of redemption? Not according to God, who says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) God created man with an internal awareness of the creator and the design and order of man's world demonstrates that truth.

But mankind is at enmity with God, he has a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jer. 17:9), so, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised." (Rom. 1:21-25) And that applies to people from ANYWHERE, even in America!

BUT... God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4) and "it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him." (Heb 11:6). God promises, "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me." (Prov. 8:17) and, "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD" (Jer. 29:13,14).

God will never renege on his promises and we cannot limit God, the work of the Holy Spirit, who is in the world and, "will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8), God is calling His elect, from every nation, tongue and people, and WILL be found by those who are searching for Him with diligence and sincerity - even in the deepest, darkest jungles of Africa or in a shiny, modern first-world country. Is not God able to do all that He says He will? I say, YES. There ARE no "hard cases" to God.

2,558 posted on 10/19/2014 6:52:29 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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