[Mrs. Don-o]

Please forgive my short-shrifting many of your points, which really are good and deserve careful discussion. I am just now switching back and forth between FR and an essay I am supposed to be finishing about G.K. Chesterton, all the while realizing I have to be out the door at 6:30 for a another commitment.

Chesterton reminds me again that before examining your reasoning process, examine the presuppositions which underlie your reasoning process. To be too brief (egad, it's almost 6 pm) I would say the classic Protestant assumption is that the Scriptures gave rise to the Church rather than t'other way around. In some form or another, it is the background of almost every argument here in the FR Religion Forum.

This thread may hit 2,000 but it'll do so without me. I've got to cram in some BBQ chicken thighs and then I'm outta here!

Have an excellent evening. Beers all around when we hit 2,000 -- have one for me, OK?

[ealgeone]

Cynicalbear's post in #1943 captures what I think about the catholic cult's teaching on Mary. It's built on a lot of supposition, would be/could be, sounds like, gee wouldn't it be nice, theology which is about a solid as shifting sand. It's the kind of stuff Joel Osteen sells on Sundays. It's fluff with no support.

I read the essay and it's the same weak arguments I've heard from every catholic on this topic. And not one of the statements is Scripturally sound.

To say that Psalms 45 points to Mary is indeed a stretch and more accurately, not even an accurate reading of the text.

The appeal that the "early church" was doing this is also dubious. We know, in spite of how many times catholics say it, that the ECFs were not in 100% agreement on Mary, the papacy, or most of the things modern day roman Catholicism espouses.

They can't even translate the passage in Luke when the angel greets Mary....He doesn't say "Hail full of grace"....for the umpteenth time the greek is translated as "Hail, you favored with grace." There is a huge difference between the two from a theological position. So from the very start the catholic position is not founded on a solid scriptural basis.

And then to compare Mary being some "new" Eve by analogy further deteriorates the catholic position. The pain of childbirth was a result of the sin of Eve. Mary experienced the pain of childbirth. She offered a sin offering after birth completely destroying the catholic position on the immaculate conception.

I just find it completely amazing that catholics are so entrenched in their "understanding" on this topic and can't see the forest for the trees.

You,Salvation and others seem like sincere nice people. I encourage you, and all catholics, to do your own research. Examine what you are being taught. Compare it with the Word. Get a greek interlinear and check the words for yourselves. Ditch the man-made stuff...stay with the Word.