Posted on 10/03/2014 2:33:43 PM PDT by NYer
Amen, Amen, and Amen!! To God be all the glory!!
The point remains that the Church as a whole did not relegate the Deuterocanon to any special status, no matter what individual opinions existed on the matter when the Canon was still in the process of formation, that is till 5 Century. The Council of Carthage lists all the books of the Catholic Old Testament without distinction. The Deuterocanonical books were used in liturgy since then. That is all that matters.
Trent merely confirmed infallibly the doctrines that were challenged by the Reformers. It did not insert anything into the canon. That is generally how the Church operates: it speaks infallibly not to establish a dogma but to confirm or disallow a doctrine when and if it is challenged.
Two problems.
First off, this is clearly a change the subject tactic.
The second is, even if either of us should answer *No*, it proves nothing. CB's question was simply asking if we should judge by actions or words. And it doesn't address the issue because ALL Catholics worldwide would need to be queried. Two former Catholics answering no could not be considered representative of the entire body of Catholicism.
>>Do Catholics give her worship that is due to God alone?<<
Illiterates, idiots and liars claim that. They are wrong.
For the Son of man shall come ... and then will he render to every man according to his works.
ON the contrary, Catholics believe that Mary can save them and the CCC itself gives Mary the titles of God, so yes, the church does teach that she is divine because they attribute to her attributes of divinity.
Nor can you state that as an absolute truth, because you would have of necessity, needed to interview every single Catholic who ever lived to find out that NO Catholics ever worshiped her as divine.
From the Catechism of the Catholic church....
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”510
Names of God from the Bible. Compare them to the names given to Mary in the above prayer.
Jesus
Hope (our) - 1 Timothy 1:1
Counselor - Isaiah 9:6
Advocate - 1 John 2:1
Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 12:24
Holy Spirit
Comforter - John 14:26
Helper – John 14:16
This is worship of Mary if ever there was.....Attributing to her the attributes of God is idolatry.
Catholics call Mary, *Mother of God*. That deifies her.
And then there’s this.....
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
True, but that is not relevant. The Protestant claim is, specifically, Harley's posts 63 is, that the Trent added the Deuterocanon. Hippo and Carthage is historical evidence that the books in question were listed alongside others by at least a local authority; and of course the Reformers themselves kept them in circulation initially. Opinions varied indeed; if all Luther had were opinions, no one would have batted an eye over his inanities.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Protecting God’s Word From “Bible Christians”, metmom wrote:
Catholics call Mary, *Mother of God*. That deifies her.
BWAHAHAHAHAhahahhaahhaa......
Too funny.
Your brain, or your colon?
Can she cite anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as evidence that Catholics worship Mary?
We may have to wait a while.
A pagan title is funny?
I suppose, but what about those that believe that rubbish?
.
Tragic is the word that comes to mind.
.
Out of that here is just one example of giving Mary attributes of God.
"O Conqueress of evil and death". Mary didn't conquer evil and hell. Jesus did.
What is sad are the loons, arm chair theologians and outright frauds posting here trying to act like mainstream Christians.
You’re going to have to share that box of cereal!
.
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty,
and impelled by the anxieties of the world,
we cast ourselves into your arms,
O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary,
confident of finding in your most loving heart
appeasement of our ardent desires,
and a safe harbour from the tempests
which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults
and overwhelmed by infinite misery,
we admire and praise the peerless richness
of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you,
above every other mere creature,
from the first moment of your conception
until the day on which,
after your assumption into heaven,
he crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal Fountain of Faith,
bathe our minds with the eternal truths!
O fragrant Lily of All Holiness,
captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume!
O Conqueress of Evil and Death,
inspire in us a deep horror of sin,
which makes the soul detestable to God
and a slave of hell! O well-beloved of God,
hear the ardent cry
which rises up from every heart.
Bend tenderly over our aching wounds.
Convert the wicked,
dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed,
comfort the poor and humble,
quench hatreds, sweeten hardness,
safeguard the flower of purity in youth,
protect the holy church,
make all men feel the attractions of Christian goodness.
In your name,
resounding harmoniously in heaven,
may they recognize that they are brothers,
and that the nations are members of one family,
upon which may there shine forth the sun
of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother,
our humble supplications,
and above all obtain for us that,
one day, happy with you,
we may repeat before your throne that hymn
which today is sung on earth around your altars:
You are all-beautiful, O Mary!
You are the glory,
your are the joy,
your are the honor of our people!
Amen.
Who conquered death and hell?
Is Jesus God?
Who was Jesus' mother?
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