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To: Gamecock

Of course it’s all assumed.

There’s not a mention of Mary anywhere in Scripture after the beginning of Acts.

The Bible is totally silent on what happened to her.


3 posted on 09/27/2014 11:16:17 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

It is not “all assumed”!

It is well documented.

Not all FACTUAL history is recorded in the Bible.


298 posted on 09/28/2014 7:50:29 AM PDT by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: metmom; Gamecock; MamaB

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/09/assumption-of-mary-in-earliest-sources.html

The conservative Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott, when discussing the concept of Mary’s bodily assumption, acknowledged that “Direct and express scriptural proofs are not to be had.” (Fundamentals Of Catholic Dogma [Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1974], p. 208) Passages like Psalm 132:8 and Revelation 11:19 are sometimes cited in support of the doctrine, but the ark in both passages can reasonably be seen as some entity other than Mary, and neither passage would require a first century bodily assumption of Mary even if we did conclude that the ark is Mary. If Mary is spiritually in Heaven, her presence there wouldn’t prove that she was bodily assumed in the first century. Even if Psalm 132 and Revelation 11 were referring to Mary being bodily in Heaven, how would we know when it occurred? No Evangelical denies that Mary is currently spiritually in Heaven and that she’ll someday have a resurrected physical body. There isn’t any way to arrive at a first century bodily assumption of Mary as a probable conclusion to any passage of scripture.

A group of some of the leading Roman Catholic and Lutheran scholars in the world concluded:

“Furthermore, the notion of Mary’s assumption into heaven has left no trace in the literature of the third, much less of the second century. M. Jugie, the foremost authority on this question, concluded in his monumental study: ‘The patristic tradition prior to the Council of Nicaea does not furnish us with any witness about the Assumption.’” (Raymond Brown, et al., Mary In The New Testament [Mahwah: Paulist Press, 1978], p. 266)

People often argue that we would know where Mary’s bodily remains are, and that early sources would have claimed more Marian relics, if she had remained in the grave, since she’s such an important person. But did the earliest Christians think Mary was as important as some people suggest? David Farmer comments:

“in the early church, as in Christ’s ministry, she [Mary] remained so much in the background that it is difficult to know where she lived or even where she died. Both Ephesus and Jerusalem claimed to be the place of her death, with the Eastern Fathers generally supporting Jerusalem.” (Oxford Dictionary Of Saints [New York, New York: Oxford University Press, 1997], p. 336)

ionysius of Alexandria, a bishop of the third century, wrote:

“Chaeremon, who was very old, was bishop of the city called Nilus. He fled with his wife to the Arabian mountain and did not return. And though the brethren searched diligently they could not find either them or their bodies.” (cited in Eusebius, Church History, 6:42:3)

This passage illustrates some points relevant to an assumption of Mary. First, it’s an illustration of the absurdity of the idea that Christians for hundreds of years would have known about a bodily assumption of Mary, yet would never have said anything about it in their extant writings, even when they’re commenting on Mary. If both Dionysius and Eusebius thought it significant that this bishop and his wife couldn’t be found, that their bodies were missing, don’t you think a bodily assumption of Mary would have seemed even more significant to them? Don’t you think it would be mentioned sometime in these early centuries?

Secondly, this passage from Dionysius illustrates the absurdity of concluding that a bodily assumption has occurred just because the whereabouts of a person’s body aren’t known. What if we were to conclude that Mary’s remains weren’t kept by the early Christians, that her tomb was empty, etc.? Would such evidence, by itself, prove that an assumption occurred? No. It would be consistent with an assumption, but it wouldn’t, by itself, prove an assumption.

The church fathers of the earliest centuries repeatedly cite Enoch and Elijah as examples of people who didn’t die, were translated to Heaven, etc. (Clement of Rome, First Clement, 9; Tertullian, A Treatise On The Soul, 50; Tertullian, On The Resurrection Of The Flesh, 58; Tertullian, Against Marcion, 5:12; Methodius, From The Discourse On The Resurrection, 14), yet they never say any such thing about Mary or include her as an example. Irenaeus, for instance, writes about the power of God to deliver people from death, and he cites Enoch, Elijah, and Paul (2 Corinthians 12:2) as illustrations of people who were “assumed” and “translated”, but he says nothing of Mary (Against Heresies, 5:5).

People claim to see references to an assumption of Mary in Biblical passages like Revelation 12. Yet, Hippolytus, Methodius, and other early fathers comment on such passages without saying anything of an assumption.

How likely is it that all of these writers, commenting in so many different contexts, would all refrain from mentioning Mary’s assumption, even though they knew of it? Though Roman Catholics give Mary so much attention and claim that Mary is God’s greatest creation, the apocryphal assumption of Moses receives more attention among the ante-Nicene fathers than Mary’s assumption (which isn’t mentioned at all).


443 posted on 09/28/2014 3:11:57 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom

“There’s not a mention of Mary anywhere in Scripture after the beginning of Acts.

The Bible is totally silent on what happened to her.”

Are you saying that the absence of evidence of Mary after Acts - is evidence of her absence?

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam


513 posted on 09/28/2014 5:13:14 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GODs)
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To: metmom

Stopped by Turkey this summer and saw the small place (Now a church) where Mary last lived and where the Assumption is believed by the Catholic church to have happened.
Special place IMO.


1,367 posted on 10/01/2014 4:53:12 AM PDT by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God Bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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