THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[ronnietherocket3]

The Catholic Church appears to have a multi-interpretation of the rock:

• CCC552 calls Christ the living stone and Peter as the unshakeable rock because of his confession.
• CCC424 calls the faith expressed by Peter the Rock on which the Church is built.
• 756 states that the Apostles build the Church on the Rock of Christ and that individual believers are stones in this Church

[Iscool]

A very narrow and specific problem with this lack of a sense of history is that if one bases oneself on the Bible alone, one needs a copy of the Bible.

Now that's a very telling and profound statement...

[ronnietherocket3]

A very narrow and specific problem with this lack of a sense of history is that if one bases oneself on the Bible alone, one needs a copy of the Bible.

I suggest you read the sentence immediately following the one you quoted, which is:

However, prior to the printing press, Bibles had to be hand-copied.

I left gaps in the statement to let the reader come to the conclusion; however, I guess I will explain the full reasoning.

To base beliefs off the Bible Alone, one needs a copy of the Bible. How does one get a copy of the Bible? In the modern world you can go to Amazon and purchase one for $20 and have it delivered to your house. However, at the time of the Apostles, this option was not available. Instead, one must have a copy of scripture to hand copy from. My copy of the bible runs at 1000 printed pages. If I were to try and hand copy this, it would probably take me a couple of years to do. So acquiring a bible in the Apostolic era was a painstaking and expensive process. For example, Orthodox Jews require their Torah Scrolls to be very carefully hand-copied (not printed). It takes about a year to do this. The Torah comprises between 20 and 25% of my copy. Extrapolating from this, it would take a skilled and trained individual over 4 years to make a hand-copy of my Bible.

Now, you could get this down a bit by removing the scripture cross-references, the 1/8 of a page book title, a couple of translation notes, a few other notes.

[Steelfish]

No surprise. Bible Christians are anti-intellectual.

[metmom]

No surprise. Bible Christians are anti-intellectual.

But we have the mind of Christ.

SPIRITUAL TRUTHS ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

[Steelfish]

This kind of shallow street theology reading for which BIble Christians are so well known won’t help. For thousands of year real theologians both Catholic, and Protestant and Jewish theologians who converted to Catholicism have confirmed Petrine authority. These are enough books on the subject to fill libraries of theological departments.

It is this command to go out to the whole world (all nations) that marks the Church that Christ established, which is why that Church came to be known as “Catholic”, from the Greek word katholikos (kata “about”, and holos, “whole”). In the year 110 A.D., not even fifteen years after the book of Revelation was written, while on his way to execution St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote: “Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic church”. The Church believes that when the bishops speak as teachers, Christ speaks; for he said to them: “He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me” (Lk 10, 16).

St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6).

[Steelfish]

Yes, the “mind of Christ” interpreted in a million and one ways. The “we” you have includes Jim Jones, David Koresh; Joel Osteen’s fortune cookie clips of inspiration, therapy, and entertainment!, and the Schuller-Graham audience of Oprah Winfrey type IQ while they establish personal family fortunes and laugh themselves all the way to the bank.

It is this command to go out to the whole world (all nations) that marks the Church that Christ established, which is why that Church came to be known as “Catholic”, from the Greek word katholikos (kata “about”, and holos, “whole”). In the year 110 A.D., not even fifteen years after the book of Revelation was written, while on his way to execution St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote: “Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic church”. The Church believes that when the bishops speak as teachers, Christ speaks; for he said to them: “He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me” (Lk 10, 16).

St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6).

[metmom]

The “we” you have includes Jim Jones, David Koresh; Joel Osteen’s fortune cookie clips of inspiration, therapy, and entertainment!, and the Schuller-Graham audience of Oprah Winfrey type IQ while they establish personal family fortunes and laugh themselves all the way to the bank.

And the Catholic church is NO different.

All those people put together could not possible equal the worth of the Catholic church.

And the Catholic church puts forth its OWN interpretation of Scripture with no more solid a base than opinion pieces of old dead guys y'all call your *church fathers*.

It's too bad Catholicism doesn't depend on the leading of the Holy Spirit. They might get something right once in a while.

[metmom]

St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6).

Just what are those traditions Paul was referring to that he handed down that we are to keep that were not included in Scripture?

How do you know?

How do you know they’re from the apostles, Paul in particular?

How do you know they’ve been passed down faithfully?

What is your source for verifying all of the above?

Please provide the sources for verification purposes.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

How do you know?

Jesus?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Jesus could have told his disciples to hand out Bibles. But nowhere in the Bible is such a commission recorded.

"If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

"...the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of truth." -- St. Paul

[Syncro]

1st Corinthians 1:23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

And here we have Catholics touting Augustine as supporting the false doctrine of the Church of Jesus being foundational upon Peter.

Throwing the possibility of seeing the truth by throwing a stumping block in front of their intellectual scholarly attempts to subvert the Church that Jesus started.

Salient verses from the Spirit of God through Augustine as you posted:

"Christ...built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built...

Upon this rock...I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church...

...the Rock (Petra) was Christ

Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. ['You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.']

Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived.

Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner.

But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.'

I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'

So, from the great theological mind of Augustine--Catholic religion Saint, church father, revered by Catholics as a speaker for their Church, how could he be wrong?

Imagine the uproar if he had not been a part of the Catholic religion.

A warning from

Ezekiel 3:19-21

¹⁹ Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

²⁰ Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

²¹ Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Good find, Elsie.

[Steelfish]

You answer your own question. So now its “how do you know”?

This is why we have Petrine authority. Not the Biblical chaos that results from its denial.

[Syncro]

Oh; THERE he is! Tom; look at these wounds.

Now; do you STILL doubt?

No Lord; let me lick them...

Naw, not sufficient:

...the Corpus on the Cross became alive, and Jesus appeared to her and with His right hand detached from the Cross,
with a loving look He beckoned his faithful Bride to come to Him. Immediately, Gemma rushed to Him and reached Him,
and while miraculously held aloft in the air, Jesus embraces her and lays her lips on the wound in His Holy Side;
Gemma, keeping tight to Him with both arms, drank plentifully out of that divine spring...
---Venerable Father Germano in his biography of St Gemma

Now that is just plain creepy!

[CynicalBear]

Please show an infallible source that shows that the traditions taught by the Catholic Church are the same as traditions the apostles were talking about.

[Elsie]

I knew that somebody could look it up.

[metmom]

Just what are those traditions Paul was referring to that he handed down that we are to keep that were not included in Scripture?

Try this one.

[Elsie]

Thank God!

Acts 26:24
At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”

[metmom]

If the Bible is not commissioned by Jesus, then why did the Catholic church write it?

If we’re supposed to listen to the (Catholic) church, then why did the Holy Spirit direct men to write Scripture?

[Elsie]

St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6).

Oh, we "Bible Christians" have no problem with this at all; but with the OTHER 'traditions' the church based in Rome has added over the years.

The ones that are so wearily spun out of diverse and unconnected existing Scripture.

[Elsie]

The “we” you have includes Jim Jones, David Koresh; Joel Osteen’s fortune cookie clips of inspiration, therapy, and entertainment!,

Get thee behind me, SATAN.