THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[CynicalBear]

Thank you for posting that.

[Elsie]

Cereal Number 2!!

[Elsie]

HEY!!!!

[Elsie]

This site would not servive without the efforts of the mods.

You suckup!

You KNOW the RM is on YOUR side!!!

--Badly_Losing_Catholic_Wannabe(Hail Mary!!)

[metmom]

That kind of escapes them.

They’ve convinced themselves that they are not following the *traditions of men* as the Pharisees were so God puts His stamp of approval on it.

They’re exempt because they’re *special*.

[reefdiver]

So you don’t think Jesus visited his mother, did I read that correct?

[RegulatorCountry]

You like?

[CynicalBear]

I guess you didn't get the memo.

Pius 9, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff..” -http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem March 17, 1856): “There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. (On the Unity of the Catholic Church) http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm

[mlizzy]

Well, the RM certainly has called us to have a thick skin and he has the power to boot people off the thread, so the advice is good.

I put on my armor and my breastplate every day, metmom; your commentary (or the commentary of boatbums) does not hurt me (the Eucharist provides a sturdy skin), it hurts you imo (which shows up through your words; i.e. bitter, upset, angry with/at the Catholic Church and/or her beliefs). Granted I may not have the overall intelligence that you possess, but am I not to try to help my Christian brother with the knowledge I do possess through "His strength and His power"?

1336 The first announcement of the Eucharist divided the disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them: "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"160 The Eucharist and the Cross are stumbling blocks. It is the same mystery and it never ceases to be an occasion of division. "Will you also go away?":161 the Lord's question echoes through the ages, as a loving invitation to discover that only he has "the words of eternal life"162 and that to receive in faith the gift of his Eucharist is to receive the Lord himself. -CCC

Emphasis; mine

[metmom]

As evidenced according to the third party observer. It's funny. When I tell people at the office I'm Catholic I inevitably hear, "I didn't know that. You don't seem like a spiritual person."

That's simply because in real life the vast majority of professing Catholics live pretty carnal lives.

If you choose to contest that statement, tell me how many Catholics are twice a yearers vs almost weekly attenders.

I remember the huge difference in attendance for Christmas and Easter vs any average Sunday from when I was a child. Not only was it 40+ years ago, but it left enough of an impression on me that I remember that.

And there's no way anyone is going to convince me that it's any better now.

Am I to understand that the protestant position is to examine externals for evidence of being born again and thereby negating the sola fide position? And so because I exhibited no external sign at the office that I am a Christian I am therefore not a Christian? After all aren't good works supposed to be a natural outflow of being born again and failing to exhibit such works constitutes the status of an indvidual's place within the Body of Christ and their salvation?

Just what good works are you exhibiting at work? Sure there are good people out there who do mot profess any faith in Christ and yet are good enough to live with people. Some even have pretty good morals. Mr. mm even works with a man who is an atheist by upbringing from an atheist regime country, and he is a very moral upright person.

The response should be when they find out I'm a Christian, oh of course, I should have known. It makes sense.

Sadly, it's sometimes, *REALLY? You don't act like a Christian.* (Actually meaning that it isn't the perception of what they think a Christian is. My daughter encountered that when she said she didn't hate gays.)

There are other evidences of a spiritually reborn person besides doing a laundry list of *good works*. The fruit of the Spirit is some.

We all struggle with sin, that's true. But A Christian is still a Christian regardless if they are unrepentant in their sin. It just makes them a bad Christian.

Yes.

Unfortunately, with much of protestantism based on personal interpretation and opinion, the ability to follow scripture and rebuke our fellow man only goes so far defined by the "as evidenced" standard. And so, the Christian in a position to help their fellow man fails to act charitably because they have been biased by their ability to see the "as evidenced" evidence and their own personal opinion on when a Christian is no longer a Christian.

No. A christian who fails to act charitably has their own issues to deal with. It's no short coming of interpretation of Scripture.

We are to be ambassadors of reconciliation.

One would be to help reconcile unbelievers with God, in salvation, and the other is to help reconcile believers with God when they have fallen out of fellowship with God through sin.

At that point, it takes it out of our hands to decide if he person is saved or not, which isn't our decision anyway,

[metmom]

Thus you have a catch 22.....how do you justify traditions apart from His word? for by using it will only prove scripture trumps traditions.

Justifying their tradition using tradition is pulling themselves up by their boot straps.

Our tradition tells us the our tradition is equal to Scripture.

Well, how convenient is that?

[CynicalBear]

Ah! The faith of the old “could a happened”! The solid rock foundation of “ it didn’t say it didn’t happen”. The unshakable “it just makes sense”!

[ronnietherocket3]

Sola Scriptura is a novelty of the reform movement and to suggest that any matter of debate within Christianity hinges solely upon Sacred Scripture is a fool's errand.

Actually it starts with the Sadducees.

[mlizzy]

Yeah, so in this supposed “unbloody sacrifice” you drink real blood. Did Jesus eat His own flesh and drink His own blood?

The Eucharist [Transubstantiation of] has not been easy to understand/believe EVEN for some priests, hence the miracles Christ has allowed (the one at Lanciano happened to a doubting priest) http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html.

[sr4402]

She is praising God

Exactly. She is praising God for her Savior that will save her from her sins.

And indirectly, that there is a Savior to save folks like us from our sins.

[CynicalBear]

2 Corinthians 11:14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light; 15 no great thing, then, if also his ministrants do transform themselves as ministrants of righteousness -- whose end shall be according to their works.7

Even the King magicians could emulate what Moses did.

[ronnietherocket3]

Here is what Paul has to say on the matter of Humans vs. The Bible (Eph 4 NIV):

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

So Jesus sent humans to teach, I don't see anything about Scripture here.

The Holy Spirit guides individual believers through His word as He enlightens them to the truth found in it.

Where does the Bible say this and that this is the only Mechanism through which the Holy Spirit acts?

[ronnietherocket3]

You keep going on about sola Scriptura yet you haven’t shown another infallible source showing where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary. If you can’t do that then scripture is all we have as their teaching.

The other infallible source is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church exercised by using the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility.

[CynicalBear]

≥>The other infallible source is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church exercised by using the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility.<<

So says the self proclaimed infallible Magisterium which is infallible because they said so.

[ronnietherocket3]

So says the self proclaimed infallible Magisterium which is infallible because they said so.

You demanded an infallible source; I gave you one. Your disagreement that it is infallible is the source of the debate on this forum and so the debate over the Assumption of Mary, is ultimately a debate over whether the Catholic Church is true. To date, I have not seen a reason to believe it is not.