THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[Steelfish]

Strange that those who express disdain for theological research, and the oral tradition must now use a street theology. Don’t take it from me.

What did Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, state about the Bible? In his “Commentary On St. John,” he stated the following: “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received It from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of It at all.”

Regardless of what non-Catholic Christians may think or say, according to secular, objective historians, the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages.

All non-Catholic Christian denominations owe the existence of the Bible to the Catholic Church alone.

God choose the Catholic Church to preserve Scripture because it is His Church.

[Springfield Reformer]

She, who was the only human-being ever born without original sin

Pardon me for piling on, but this is really something that warrants attention. If you meant to say that Mary was the only human being with an exclusively human nature (not divine) who was born without original sin, then you would still be wrong, but at least you would not be running afoul of the doctrine of Christ shared by Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. Jesus, though He was fully divine, was also fully human, and born without original sin. He therefore qualifies as both human, and born without original sin. Your words *must* include Him, or you have rejected your own orthodoxy. I am sure it is accidental on your part. If you don't trust us, call your priest and ask.

Peace,

SR

[GeronL]

You are right, the assertion that Mary was born without original sin is un-Christian. Didn’t Jesus say something about John the Baptist being the most perfect person he knew? (which means, NOT Mary)

[caww]

<<<..."I pray to Mary"....>>>

[boatbums]

You want to call being *born again* "vapid nonsense"? Take it up with Jesus. That may be in agreement with Catholic thinking and teaching but it is at odds with God. Jesus speaking here.

And their very first so-called "pope" who said:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (I Peter 1:3)

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (I Peter 1:23)

[Springfield Reformer]

Strange that those who express disdain for theological research, and the oral tradition must now use a street theology. Don’t take it from me.

I'm sure you meant something useful here, but I have no clue what a "street theology" is, so your cleverness is lost on me.  Sorry.

What did Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, state about the Bible? In his “Commentary On St. John,” he stated the following: “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received It from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of It at all.”

Actually, the text you are attempting to cite is not from a commentary on John, but from one of Luther's sermons:

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? Therefore faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. What business have I, then, to preach against them as a pupil preaching against his teachers? Then there come rushing into my heart thoughts like these: “Now I see that I am in error. Oh, if only I had never started this and had never preached a word! For who dares oppose the church, of which we confess in the Creed: I believe in a holy Christian Church, etc.? Now I find this church in the papacy too. It follows, therefore, that if I condemn this church, I am excommunicated, rejected, and damned by God and all the saints

But what is now our defense? And what is the ground on which we can hold our own against such offense and continue to defy those people? It is nothing else than the masterly statement St. Paul employs in Rom. 9:7: “Not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants.” Not all who bear the name are Israelites; or, as the saying goes: “Not all who carry long knives are cooks.” Thus not all who lay claim to the title “church” are the church. There is often a great difference between the name and the reality. The name is general. All are called God’s people, children of Abraham, Christ’s disciples and members; but this does not mean that they all are what the name signifies. For the name “church” includes many scoundrels and rascals who refused to obey God’s Word and acted contrary to it. Yet they were called heirs and successors of the holy patriarchs, priests, and prophets. To be sure, they had God’s Law and promise, the temple, and the priesthood. In fact, they should have been God’s people; but they practiced idolatry so freely under the cloak of the name “church” that God was forced to say: “This shall no longer be My temple and priesthood. My people shall no longer be My people. But to those who are not My people it shall be said: ‘You are sons of the living God

Thus we are also compelled to say: “I believe and am sure that the Christian Church has remained even in the papacy. On the other hand, I know that most of the papists are not the Christian Church, even though they give everyone the impression that they are. Today our popes, cardinals, and bishops are not God’s apostles and bishops; they are the devil’s. And their people are not God’s people; they are the devil’s. And yet some of the papists are true Christians, even though they, too, have been led astray, as Christ foretold in Matt. 24:24. But by the grace of God and with His help they have been preserved in a wonderful manner.

In the meantime we adhere to the distinction made here by Christ and do not regard as Christendom those who do not hold truly and absolutely to what Christ taught, gave, and ordained, no matter how great, holy, and learned they may be. We tell them that they are the devil’s church. On the other hand, we want to acknowledge and honor as the true bride of Christ those who remain faithful to His pure Word and have no other comfort for their hearts than this Savior, whom they have received and confessed in Baptism and in whose name they have partaken of the Sacrament. These are the true church. It is not found in only one place, as, for example, under the pope; but it exists over the entire earth wherever Christians are found. Outwardly they may be scattered here and there, but they meet in the words of the Creed: “I believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was born, suffered, and died for us on the cross.” In like manner, they pray: “Our Father who art in heaven.” They share the same Spirit, Word, and Sacrament. They all lead the same holy and blessed life, each one according to his calling, whether father, mother, master, servant, etc. Thus whatever we preach, believe, and live, this they all preach, believe, and live. Physically separated and scattered here and there throughout the wide world, we are nevertheless gathered and united in Christ

Hat tip to James Swan for the full discussion here: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/11/luther-infallible-church-declared.html

So the quip you provided, as you can see, is significantly more favorable to Rome that what Luther actually said. Indeed, understood in context, Luther is mocking the grandiose pretensions of Rome, as the following paragraphs make clear. He is basically saying, why yes, they must be the source of everything we know about the Gospel, so who am I to oppose them.  But the truth is, they are not the true source of that divine message. God is. They were mere caretakers, as Israel was, and not all in their membership are the true church, just as many in Israel were not true Israelites. And for their corruptions, idolatries, and rejection of God's truth, God has rejected them. But the faithful remnant remains, preserved by God Himself, some still under Rome, some not. And so we may understand that Luther here is giving them no more credit for the Scriptures than he gave the Pharisees, who, if you will recall, were the only group ever identified by Jesus as impossible to save, for their sin against the Holy Spirit was unpardonable. But at least they will have their fine education to keep them company. 

Regardless of what non-Catholic Christians may think or say, according to secular, objective historians, the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages.

All non-Catholic Christian denominations owe the existence of the Bible to the Catholic Church alone.

God choose the Catholic Church to preserve Scripture because it is His Church.

Again, if you would kind study up on Lampe's exhaustive and scholarly study, you would be able perhaps to see that what we "street theologians" have been saying all along has been proven out by one of your educational elites: Your alleged Petrine "office" never existed in old Rome as modern Rome defines it. Lampe has made a significant contribution to our understanding of the facts because he was willing to roll up his sleeves and really work at what others were only willing to blather on about.  I can respect that.

Peace,

SR

[daniel1212]

Indeed, as the only heavenly intercessor the Holy Spirit states is is Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

Angels offering memorials will not do,

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:24-25)

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18)

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:19-22)

Now to do so more in all times

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:22)

In contrast, while saints provide inspiration by way of examples, we are only told to look to the Lord in Heaven and pray to Him, not "our Mother who art in Heaven." The fact that the Lord Jesus is called upon in prayer (1Cor. 1:2; Rm. 10:13) is a testimony to His deity, and His exalted position as high priest and intercessor, and it is dishonoring to Him to address another as if they possessed the Divine ability to hear incessant prayers, which only God is shown having.

[caww]

<<<<.. the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture...>>>

...You might want to check with these guys about that comment....

...and they're still at it today...

[caww]

<<<<...Mary wasn’t God...>>>

Then your people need to get off their knees from bowing to her name

.....FOR AS IT IS WRITTEN....

[caww]

“.......we adhere to the distinction made here by Christ.... and do not regard as Christendom those who do not hold truly and absolutely to what Christ taught, gave, and ordained, no matter how great, holy, and learned they may be..... We tell them that they are the devil’s church. .....On the other hand, we want to acknowledge and honor as the true bride of Christ those who remain faithful to ‘His pure Word’ and have no other comfort for their hearts than this ‘Savior’.......”

Oh how I love that we serve a God of Distinctions!

[caww]

......"The fact that the Lord Jesus is called upon in prayer.... (1Cor. 1:2; Rm. 10:13).... is a testimony to 'His deity', and 'His exalted position' as high priest and 'intercessor',....... and it is dishonoring to Him to address another as if they possessed the Divine ability to hear incessant prayers,... which only God is shown having:....

God said quite clearly...."I hate those who cling to worthless idols"... and of those who use them....."They are all senseless and foolish, they are 'taught' by worthless wooden idols.

Habakkuk declared......"What profit is the idol when its maker has carved it, Or an image, 'a teacher' of falsehood?..... For its maker trusts in his own handiwork When he fashions speechless idols"..........

....then like with the Pharisess he says...."Woe to him who says to a piece of wood, 'Awake!' To a mute stone, 'Arise!'.... And that is your teacher?.... 2:18

( first couple script. references) Psalm 31:6...Jerimiah 10:8)

[caww]

...”I pray to Mary so that she may intercede with her Son”....

Her son has already spoken regarding her...

He said to her....”Woman, what have I to do with you” ....He didn’t even call her ‘mother’, her work was done and he certainly let her know that.....like Sarah she was trying to move things forward , so of course Jesus rebuked her adding...”My time has not yet come”.....

.....If it weren’t for her being his mother, and his tenderness toward her for being that, he could have well said, as he did to Peter when he wanted Jesus to take a course of action,...”Get thee behind me satin, you’re a stumbling block to me!”

...and keep in mind HE had already told her prior some years back at the Temple no less, that He must be about ‘His Fathers business’ when she was making issue about the fact they’d been looking for Him.

Jesus knew His Father’s will and His destiny...Mary’s work was over.......So she certainly has no part in our affairs either as we go about our Father’s Business...and it’s through Jesus and by His Spirit we accomplish that.

[metmom]

Do you know what the word “intercession” means or do you have access to a dictionary? I pray to Mary so that she may intercede with her Son, Jesus. Come on, that’s not too difficult to understand.

Problem is, most prayers to Mary are not merely asking her to pray for them, but rather prayers asking her for things.

Additionally, Jesus Himself assured us that the Father hears and answers our prayers.

Why go to Mary at all? Do Catholics think they're more likely to get something by going through her than asking God Himself directly?

What a slap in the face to God.

Also, we don't need Mary's intercession because Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercede for us according to the will of the Father.

[metmom]

So the quip you provided, as you can see, is significantly more favorable to Rome that what Luther actually said. Indeed, understood in context, Luther is mocking the grandiose pretensions of Rome, as the following paragraphs make clear.

But taking things out of context is endemic to Catholicism.

They do it all the time with Scripture. Why not Luther as well?

[CynicalBear]

>>Mary wasn’t God, but the only human born without the stain of Original Sin.<<

So you don't believe Jesus was human?

[CynicalBear]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Come on, that's not to difficult to understand. Catholics need to recognize the Jesus of scripture not the paganized Jesus of Catholicism.

[CynicalBear]

>>Based on your position 'that Mary was sinless' she automatically is disqualified as intercessor for she cannot sympathize with our weaknesses if she is as you say sinless.. ..<<

Did you know there are only two religions in the world who claim Jesus was not the only sinless man recorded in scripture? Those two are Catholics and Muslims.

[Elsie]

Good question!

Have an answer?

[Elsie]

Who is that white, Caucasian, European looking woman in your pictures?

I thought the Mother of GOD was fully and completely JEWISH?

[Elsie]

If you disagree with Catholic teachings so-be-it, but it is not something that is disputable.

Sure it is!

Boldly proclaiming it off-limits is NOT a way to Influence people and win friends.