THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[Heart-Rest]

"BTW; if the question is so simple; why did you ask it?"

=============================================================

Whenever I ask you a question, it is to get your answer.    (That's why most questions are asked, Elsie.)

When I asked that question, however, I have to admit I was not expecting a straightforward answer from you, and I was right -- you didn't answer it at all.

(For the benefit of any possible lurkers here, I asked Elsie a simple question in post #682, and he just totally dodged it.    You'll have to ask him why he dodged it, though I'm sure I know why.    Here again (below) is that simple question I asked him in post #682.)

------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, do you have faith enough in God's power to believe that if God willed that Mary be able to hear all those prayers, God has enough power to enable her to hear them?

------------------------------------------------------------

And here was Elsie's peculiar response in post #693:

------------------------------------------------------------

Do you have enough brains to understand I do not go chasing these Catholic rabbits down the holes you keep trying to dig?

------------------------------------------------------------

Well Elsie, I can't answer for you as to whether or not you have enough faith in God to agree that God has the power to make this happen if He wants to, but I will tell you that God most certainly DOES have sufficient power to enable Mary to hear all the requests for her intercession addressed to her, whether you believe God has that power or not.

(You don't have to dodge that question ever again Elsie.)

And lurkers, here are the links I provided to Elsie in that post to help him with that question:

✝============================================================✝

"Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense"

Catholic Answers youtube - "http://www.youtube.com/catholiccom"

✝============================================================✝

We know that God wants us to pray for one another, as the Bible is loaded with such exhortations (some quick examples: Ephesians 6:18, Colossians 1:9, 1 Timothy 2:1, James 5:16).    Why do some people think (contrary to scripture) that God no longer wants saints to pray for others once they are in heaven

We also know that God likes to delegate tasks to His created beings, including humble human beings.

For example, God could have infused everything we need to know directly into our heart, mind, and soul, or used some other direct method to impart that knowledge directly to us, but He instead chose mere human beings to lead His Church, write every single word in every single book in the Bible, and perform other tasks He has delegated to them.

Because of their own limited thinking abilities, or lack of faith, some people do not believe that God can enable the saints in heaven to hear all the intercessory prayer requests addressed to them.    These people cannot understand how or why God can enable that process to happen, so they just don't believe it is possible.    Some of them, in their haughty pride, and belligerent ignorance, and unbelievable arrogance, lift their noses high into the air and declare that if they can't understand how or why God could enable something, it just cannot be done.    They do not have enough faith to accept those truths without being able to understand them, and the simple reason they cannot understand "how" or "why" God would enable such a process is plainly given in the written Word of God:

✝============================================================✝

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.     Isaiah 55:8-9

✝============================================================✝

It would behoove all doubters of God's power to seriously rethink their silly skepticism, for their own sakes.

Now, (again for any lurkers), to return to the original theme of this thread, I urge you to go to these links below for enlightenment about the "Assumption of Mary" (and other closely related matters) for yourselves, and ignore all the silly skeptics.

✝============================================================✝

"Scott Hahn on the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary"

"IMMACULATE CONCEPTION AND ASSUMPTION" - Karl Keating

✝============================================================✝

[Iscool]

First, since you're all Christians pinged here, I'd humbly ask that you all pray that my tinnitus be taken away by our Lord and God Jesus Christ. It's very bad today, like a scream of a steam whistle in my head.

I suffer from the same malady...It is not easy to live with...I will certainly pray for you...

[caww]

He loved Preaching on the Hillsides too! Although I have to say I've yet to see a painting or sculpture or an artistic image of Jesus I've liked...they're all pretty distorted one way or another...

[Heart-Rest]

"And then the Holy Spirit had them write the New Testament in Greek which clearly differentiates between Petros and Petra. And the entirety of the rest of scripture makes it clear that Jesus is the rock. Then we have the Catholic Church concurrence that it’s Peter’s confession of who Jesus is and not the man Peter. Hmmmm"

You didn't read the post, did you?

[caww]

...”intellectual tradition is beyond their grasp”...

Did that remark help you feel smart?

[boatbums]

And it took nineteen hundred years for God to convince her otherwise!!! ;o)

[CynicalBear]

All that and not one example of apostles or Jesus teaching to pray to anyone who has passed from this life.

[CynicalBear]

Yep, I read it.

[Elsie]

This is certainly an explanation; however, I have seen no proof that it did not happen.

So; can I assume that you'll believe ANYTHING that has NO proof it did NOT happen?

---

If so; Joseph Smith may play a big part in your future.

[boatbums]

You’re welcome.

[Elsie]

We don't LAND there; just RESIDE there.

[mlizzy]

I've seen this explained different ways, but regardless, the Catholic Church proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854, and on February 11, 1858, Bernadette Soubirous, had her first (of 18) visions at Lourdes:

“I came back towards the grotto and started taking off my stockings. I had hardly taken off the first stocking when I heard a sound like a gust of wind. Then I turned my head towards the meadow. I saw the trees quite still: I went on taking off my stockings. I heard the same sound again. As I raised my head to look at the grotto, I saw a Lady dressed in white, wearing a white dress, a blue girdle and a yellow rose on each foot, the same color as the chain of her rosary; the beads of the rosary were white.”

...

But he [Father Dominique Peyramale], made a request that her lady reveal her name. On several questions the angelic lady only smiled when Bernadette had asked her name. But on March 25th the Lady stated to Bernadette “que soy era Immaculada Councepciou.” “I am the Immaculate Conception” At the time, Bernadette did not realise the significance of these words. (The doctrine on the Immaculate conception of Mother Mary had only recently been approved by the Vatican). But, she repeated the words inwardly to avoid forgetting them before speaking the words to her astonished priest.

Did Mary come to Bernadette at Lourdes to back up the dogma recently proclaimed? There were and still are plentiful miracles resulting from Mary's apparitions at Lourdes.

[Heart-Rest]

"All that and not one example of apostles or Jesus teaching to pray to anyone who has passed from this life. "

And you didn't listen to the Catholic Answers link I posted about the Biblical defense of praying to Mary either, did you?

[Elsie]

How would the modern day Bishops and Cardinals respond to him wandering the desert, wearing rough clothes of hair, eating locusts and honey while preaching repentance?

Off with his head!

No... wait...

Heat the oil hotter!!

Is the lead melted yet??

[caww]

...”Paul’s words that ‘the teachers’ of Mariology are accursed by God”....

Well they do seem to fit the criteria I must say......and those who promote or encourage are more than riding a fine line to that. The leadership of the catholic church, and those they instruct to teach,y are under this curse I believe, and why God Himself has raised their mask where we see what’s happened, and continues to within that leadership....sadly even shaming them has not brought an end to it.

I’d like to think that the’membership’ doesn’t yet carry this curse quite so much as the leadership because they’re so deeply indoctrinated to the roles of their leaders ‘over them’ that they’ll simply “latch on” to anything they want them to believe. .....Oh a few might have “conversations” which might raise questions of any changes...but just like with Vatican2, they will abide by just the same.

God is still reaching out to catholics within the church, and most definately warning those who are thinking about entering....but I do see that window closing more of late as things are being prepared to usher in the future events, when there ability to choose will be removed...they will believe the lie.

[CynicalBear]

>>And it took nineteen hundred years for God to convince her otherwise!!! ;o)<<

LOL! I hadn't even thought about that but yeah. She changed her mind and said "wait a minute here, I'm not getting any kudos. I want some praise and glory too"? Surely she didn't just get sick and tired of picking up after Jesus and want out more often.

[Elsie]

What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on thiskepha I will build my Church.

You ALWAYs merely post this sentence.

Why?

Does not the explanation given you Catholics by CATHOLIC SCHOLARS agree with what you've been taught lately?

---

Here; you can read them (there's a LOT!) again to help refresh your memory:

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,

 

Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. — http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm

Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,

Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. — Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71

And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,

“If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.

Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.

• Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:

Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. — Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians—Philemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

• Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

[Elsie]

Rev. 12 has been used frequently on this thread. To date I have yet to see someone explain how it is not Mary.

Sorry; it don't work that way.

YOU get to explain how it IS Mary.

I'll wait.

[Steelfish]

No: Fundamentalists (just like David Koresh and Jim Jones, and Billy Graham etc) are those who spurn theological debate, research, and inquiry because it explodes their sola scriptura nonsense must be deemed anti-intellectual. Name me a single university theological department that spouts this infantile stuff.

[mlizzy]

then further compounding this you conclude with it all pointing to mary!...Therefore....you’ve exposed yourself and your position of being a Worshiper of Mary.

Oh, please, get some new "cheaters," maybe 3.00 strength:

Mary, the angels, saints, holy water, crucifixes, blessed salt, saint medals, rosaries, scapulars, etc. and so on, are all reminders (in one way or another) of Christ, so they bring a wandering mind back to Jesus, where it belongs. If your mind never wanders, that's perfect! However, respect should be shown to the Mother of God, simply because of her position.