Posted on 09/02/2014 5:55:17 PM PDT by Gamecock
No, that’s not denying Jesus. It’s a relatively new pastor in the spotlight and on the spot (maybe he wasn’t ready for this yet) who hates to condemn others and didn’t know who to answer the question. You people also ignore the fact he later apologized for not being more clear in his answer.
It’s one thing to say he screwed up on one particular occasion and even that is debatable (even man’s law deals with the motivations of the heart when accessing guilt or innocence - there is a strong argument that Joel’s motivation was trying not to condemn others and didn’t know how to answer the question because of that - not becasue he was “denying Jesus”). But that certainly does not prove by a preponderance of evidence that he lives a life as a heretic who denies Jesus.
Even a criminal is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And proof of guilt in civil court requires a preponderance of evidence. Here, you’ve attacked and accused a brother in Christ. Yet, there is no evidence of systemic, purposeful heresy or denial of Jesus, but rather most evidence is on the level of personal disagreement or dislike. That kind of evidence is irrelevant and amounts to a frivolous complaint at law. How much more before God’s righteous and merciful court. You have unjustly and wrongfully attacked and defamed the character of Joel, a child of the Most High, based mostly on personal preference. As I said to someone else, this is despicable.
As I also said, we all do despicable things, but God’s mercy and grace is greater than our sins. I know Joel has forgiven all who have and continue to attack him and so do I. He has moved on and so do I.
I’m done here.
Zuriel, you’re quoting in many cases scripture in the wrong administration and influenced by religious legalism, and in denial of clear scripture as to what true baptism now is in this administration:
Hebrews 9:10 -
“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”
Here, we see stated the old rituals done away with at the reform “Day of pentecost/administration of grace” which began in Acts 1.
Act 1:5 -
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Act 18:25-26 -
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 -
“And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”
Here’s another example of how water baptism was still being practiced early on in the Church because of tradition. Like Paul, those people began to realize the true baptism of the new administration.
And when Paul had met with Apollos’ disciples, he was not satisfied with water baptism and taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ!
Romans 10:9 -
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Rom 10:10 -
“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
It’s good that you are done here. Holy Spirit filled followers of Christ see through the carnality of Osteens eat, drink, and be merry preaching.
Where in Scripture did the Pharisees call Paul a heretic?
and claims that he "denies Jesus" - those are vicious, mean, unfounded, and uncalled for.
They are not unfounded. He did it on national TV for all to see.
Don't blame me for pointing out what he did. HE'S the one who did it.
You have seen that incident, haven't you?
And should you deny that it took place, Joel Osteen later issued an apology for it.
If he didn't do it, then what did he apologize for?
And by his apology HE admitted it happened.
http://carolinachristianconservative.blogspot.com/2005/06/joel-osteen-apologizes-for-larry-king.html
We know you are honey.
You don’t need to keep reminding us of that.
Free show for all!
.
What show?
It’s been nothing but reruns for years now.
Amen!
His mercy and grace are not for those that lack belief.
**Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you...”**
So, the Lord wasn’t commanding water baptism in Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; and John 3:5?
So, Peter wasn’t commanding water baptism in Acts 2:38; 10:47,48? (”can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...”. And..I believe that in harmony with those, He was INDEED referring to water baptism in his ‘like figure’ teaching in 1Peter 3:21
So, Paul, who rebuked the Corinthians for bragging about WHO baptized them, instead of whose name was actually called upon during baptism, shouldn’t have personally baptized the few that he did in Corinth? (Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas)
Now, we know that Paul preached to a lot of people in Corinth. But, he personally baptized a few himself, and was thankful he hadn’t done more since some of the Corinthians were getting preacher religion, because of who baptized them. Others with him, such as Silas and Timothy, probably performed many of the baptisms. Paul told the Corinthians that he was not sent to solely baptise, but to preach the gospel, and we know his wasn’t a John the baptist ministry.
**Peter says it saves us, but from what?
“Be saved from this perverse generation!”**
So, you are saying that the Holy Ghost is the new life, but doesn’t save us from ‘this perverse generation’; that water baptism does that?
**I’m sorry, but you are twisting scripture if you claim water baptism gives us life. Water baptism does not regenerate us, but it is a part of the sanctification - separation - process, as Peter clearly taught.**
Being born again gives new life. Water baptism is the death and burial, the Holy Ghost is life:
“Therefore we are buried with him in baptism INTO death”....
The Spirit is life, not death.....”that like as Christ was raised up from the dead BY the GLORY of the Father..”. Rm 6:4
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Col. 2:12
Burial is death. the ‘operation of God’ is the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit.
“For if we have been planted together” (you and Christ. that’s why you use his name in water baptism) “IN the LIKENESS of his DEATH, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”. Rm.6:5
If you could literally be buried be buried in the tomb, wrapped in the same linen with Christ, then you would literally have his blood on you.
**The blood cleanses us from sin. The water cleans us from the world, and dedicates our life to God.**
True, and that takes place in one action...being buried with Him.
Act two already?
Bravo!
More re-runs......
**And when Paul had met with Apollos’ disciples, he was not satisfied with water baptism and taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ!**
Paul not only ‘taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ’, they then “were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus”. After which, when Paul laid his hands on them, they received the Holy Ghost baptism.
**Hebrews 9:10 -“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” Here, we see stated the old rituals done away with at the reform “Day of pentecost/administration of grace” which began in Acts 1.**
In Heb. 6:1-3, the writer is not discontinuing the ‘doctrine of Christ’, which included repentance from dead works, faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms(plural), laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. For he says: “And this we will do, if God permit”.
You see, the epistles were written to those already born again, already sanctified (saints). That includes Romans, which people incorrectly use as evangelistic teaching (bypassing all or much of Acts), instead of as it really is: instruction and edification to the saints.
Remember my pointing out how Paul said to the Corinthians (some of which were of Gentile ethnicity) “ALL our fathers were under the cloud, and ALL passed through the sea, and were ALL baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.”
The Israelites were as good as dead without crossing the Red Sea. Could God have preserved them with just the cloud? God knows, but he wanted them to leave that world behind and begin a new life. So, he made a way of escape, and it was ‘though the sea’. They then continued on with the cloud leading them.
Mainline Christianity makes ‘passing through the sea’ kinda important, but not urgent, and that it certainly doesn’t save. Moses would beg to differ with you.
Oh, and by the way, one slip up or stumble in an interview (what he meant or was trying to say can be argued either way, but even that isn't really the point) is NOT SYSTEMIC, ON-GOING, PURPOSEFUL denial of Jesus.
The fact that he apologized anyway is further proof that your continuing accusations and attacks are unjust and uncalled for. I pray you stop, in Jesus name.
Bye.
**Of course. Now let me ask you, have you asked Jesus to be your personal savior?**
Yes, over fifty years ago, but wasn’t taught Acts 2:38 by my Calvinist ministers, EVER, during my time attending those churches. I trusted them, unfortunately, more than the Word itself. But God sent me a witness, to show me the way of God more perfectly.
“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”. Matt. 5:6
Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had, and come and follow him. This rich young ruler had been faithful to God in all that he knew up to that point.
And in the world of financial riches here in the US, there is this yap about the 1% folk. That makes for good, us versus them arguments, yet the line is not so precise. To me, the top 20% are financially rich compared to me.
Some folks are rich in family tradition, including church tradition as well. The truth of the Word forces separation from the world, separation in families, too. Here, the line IS precise:
“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.’ Matt. 7:14
So do you believe you were saved after asking Jesus to be your savior or not until you were baptized?
I never said we are not commanded to have a water baptism, nor have I claimed it was unimportant. However, it is the Spirit that gives life, not water.
Water baptism saves you out of the wicked world we live in and show we are a people set apart. It follows new life, but does not give it.
“If you could literally be buried be buried in the tomb, wrapped in the same linen with Christ, then you would literally have his blood on you.”
True, and irrelevant since none of us literally have the blood of Jesus splashed on our physical skin. But when JESUS baptizes us in the Holy Spirit, we receive a new life. That life is not based on water but on what Jesus does - filling us with the Holy Spirit.
Water baptism is important, but it is important for the reasons Peter explained - it is part of sanctification, and separating us from this wicked world. There is no doubt about the “one baptism” that unites us with Christ:
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
Not water, but the Spirit is our baptism into Christ. There is a reason why the baptism in the Holy Spirit is so important:
“For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” - 1 Cor 12
You can argue with Peter and Paul all you want, but it is not water that gives us life:
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
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