Your posts exhibit a vitriolic disdain for “dead excommunicated Marcel”, and contempt for Catholics affiliated with SSPX, as well as those you deem to be “sycophants” who choose to view the situation through a charitable lens rather than adopt the harsh, condemnatory “patois” with which your comments are rife.
1. It is evident by your posts that in your opinion, only lockstep concurrence with non infallible, prudential decisions made by Pope JPII (but not Pope BXVI) are permissable. False opinion, and one which on its face contradicts Church teaching.
2. Regarding Ecclesia Dei, the entire document was in response to the Lefebvre consecrations. According to you, “the Tridentine Mass was being said somewhat regularly in a number of dioceses with permission of the respective Ordinaries BEFORE Ecclesia Dei”, which does not change the fact that for most Catholics, the Tridentine Mass was no longer accessible, and had been replaced by a Protestantized and abuse-ridden rite which has contributed to the current widespread loss of belief in the Real Presence, among other rotten fruits. But again, your implication is that as long as it was accessible to the special people such as yourself, who as a consequence of personal connections, were able to arrange matters favorably for themselves in regard to Tridentine Mass availability, all was well.
3. Your contempt for “dead Marcel” apparently blinds you to the fact that the situation is potentially analogous to the the case of St. Athanasius. And as in the case of St. Athansius, only the passage of time will lead us to the truth.
4. According to you, “even so knowledgeable and holy a man as Benedict XVI is not free of prudential error.”
Any claim to logical consistency therefore demands the same view of JPII’s non-infallible, prudential decisions (unless one deliberately chooses to be a hypocrite).
5. “...you forgot to mention that their remaining sacraments are ILLICIT and most particularly Holy Orders and any further instances of illicit consecration of bishops.”
I also forgot to mention the widespread, illicit abuses I have been subjected to at Novus Ordo Masses (including changes to the consecration prayers which potentially invalidated the Mass). Strange that there have been no calls for excommunications as a result of such illicit clerical acts.
6. The scandalous top down cover-up of the world-wide, systemic homosexual abuse occurred during the papacy you so admire, and the suppression of the Tridentine Mass in favor of the Protestantized, abuse-prone Novus Ordo is another example of the abuse of the laity which occurred during that time period. The fact that the Church is not a democracy does not bestow upon the hierarchy the moral right to abuse the laity in such egregious fashion in either case.
7. “Theirs will necessarily not be the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter but you knew that and prefer the path of purporting to bully existing Church authorities, which, fortunately, has not worked to date and hopefully never will.”
Again, you are writing presumptuous nonsense. I don’t believe we’ve met. How can you presume to know what I “prefer”?
8. “In short, we were polite and the archbishop reacted accordingly.”
Bravo! To heck with the poor schmucks who apparently lack the communication skills to approach the bishop with your special finesse. If only they had your skills, they too could have had the Tridentine wedding they wished for.
9. “...black and Hispanic street criminals have a profound respect for the worship of God.
Street criminals (of whatever race) have such “profound respect for the worship of God” yet not enough apparently to refrain from drug dealing, robbery, murder and other assorted acts of villainy.
“Whoops, there I go criticizing another pope.”
Will you be willing to taking your theological cues from Kenneth Copeland and Plim Plim? Will you excoriate those who recognize the destructive nature of the actions of the current pope and hold fast to tradition? It will be interesting to see how far those such as yourself who condemn Lefebvre with zero regard for his motives will be willing to defend the outcome of the synod should it swing in the direction of Cardinal Kasper’s “serene theology”.
1. Vitriolic disdain...contempt...sycophants...and, lest you forget or omit, the "Do It Yourself" faux papal pronouncements of the SSPX schismatics and their faithful supporters as to what "on its face, contradicts Church teaching" Check! And Redouble!
2. Post hoc, propter hoc. Also, balderdash! Being polite and respectful towards and considerate of one's diocesan ordinary does not suggest "special people" nor "personal connections," just good manners. SSPX sycophants should try it some time. It worked for the founders of FSSP. It worked for me and my wife. Of course, it is a different route than throwing temper tantrums at legitimate Church authority reminiscent of "the terrible twos." If the low rent Novus Ordo was approved by Paul VI as the normative Mass of the Church Universal, then perforce it is NOT "Protestantized" and whether the rubrics are being "abused" would seem to be the responsibility of the priest saying the Mass. It is entirely possible for Tridentine Masses to be abused by faithless or negligent priests as well. As to the Tridentine Mass being "accessible" to each and every Catholic, that would be a good idea but hardly to be obtained "on demand" from the pews. What is "Protestantized" is the attitude of people in the pews who think it is somehow their job to boss around the pope and the bishops.
3. St. Athanasius was exiled from his See at Alexandria at five various times by Emperors Constantine, Constantius II, Julian the Apostate and Valens. Whatever these emperors may have displayed as personal qualities, they were NOT popes. At best, you may cite Pope Liberius (under duress) as approving one such exile, however briefly. Popes Pius IX (Quartus Supra) and Benedict XV (Principi Apostolorum Petro) both defended Liberius from claims that he had sided with the Arians against Athanasius. Which Roman emperors exiled dead excommunicated Marcel? That's right! There haven't been any Roman emperors in quite some centuries (1 1/2 millenia or so). However cliched in SSPX circles, your analogy limps fatally.
4. Correct. And the SSPXers proved it by virtually spitting on Benedict XVI in exchange for his manifest generosity towards their living miscreant bishops. You may recall Fellay dictating terms to Benedict XVI as to Fellay's and the schism's demands for Vatican surrender on what SSPX regards as "issues" to be resolved before they will reconcile with the Church, as though the Church might somehow benefit from the return of their august schismatics. And then we have the ritual use of the weapon of liberals everywhere: the dreaded "h" word (hypocrisy). On this score, your argument is that all popes "are made of the same clay, you know!" If Benedict XVI can be said to commit prudential error (in his undue hospitality to the schismatics), then Saint John Paul II just must have been guilty of prudential error in excommunicating Marcel and his co-conspirators in ecclesiastical crime and declaring them schismatic in the first place. Why? Because SSPXland (a new part of DisneyWorld) wishes so fervently for it to be recognized to be so.
5. Have you respectfully communicated your observations and concerns to the diocesan ordinary??? Is he expected to be a mind reader? Stranger still that you have not PUBLICLY called for excommunications. And, of course, it is all about YOU and what YOU have been subjected to. Poor persecuted baby!!!
6. While Saint John Paul II was occupied with the ordinary day-to-day demands of the papacy (recovering from the assassination attempt, cooperating with Ronaldus Maximus and Maggie Thatcher in bringing down the Iron Curtain and terminating the USSR, issuing encyclicals such as Evangelium Vitae, excommunicating heretics and schismatics and so forth), he was actually abusing YOU with that "Protestantized abuse-prone Novus Ordo" AND somehow was personally and knowingly engaged in a "top-down" (your choice of language not mine and pope is the top) "cover up of the worldwide systemic homosexual abuse...." To hear you tell it, Saint John Paul II got up each morning, asking himself: What can I do, as pope, to make BlatherNaut's life miserable today? Fail to restore the Tridentine rites? Cover up some more "worldwide systemic homosexual abuse???" (by about 2% of clergy which seems quite inefficient for worldwide, etc.) Wanna argue for a married priesthood as a one-size fits all false panacea? You've gotten most of the other cliched attacks on the Vatican down pat.
7. I know what you prefer by reading what you write.
8. It is not much of a skill to use respect toward one's archbishop and to politely request permission rather than throwing self-centered fits like a troubled two year-old and trying to boss the archbishop around. Try it and you may get better results than modeling the terrible twos.
9. As to black and Hispanic street criminals, you are smug but ignorant of the facts. I'm not sinless. Are you? I can assure you that Marcel did not get excommunicated for his sinlessness either. He lived another three years during which he could have repented as publicly as he had misbehaved but chose not to so repent. I don't imagine I will be taking cues from Kenneth Copeland or Plim Plim. Are they in line to be consecrated by SSPX when the mood strikes the schism or when the schism is running out of bishops? So now, we are to judge dead excommunicated Marcel by his "motives" rather than his performance? Isn't that what the liberals usually demand? No matter how many times they screw up, only their good intentions count, right? As to your last paragraph and how I may respond to Pope Francis and Cardinal Kaspar, I have never had much use for Kaspar and do not expect a change in that status quo. As to Pope Francis, I almost left for Russian Orthodoxy over Paul VI and the Novus Ordo before accepting papal authority as to rubrics, but, as Senator Teddy said to Mary Jo as they headed for the Chappaquiddick Ferry, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." We will probably come to it some time after the next papal funeral.