[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks for your patience with my lpses into tpographical incoherence...! Lapses.

Typorgraphica.

Typographical. There.

Rather than launching right into the ol' repartee, let me try telling you a true and recent experience of mine, soon to be grist for an analogy

I'm supposed to deliver parking passes and gate tickets for the Appalachian Fair to a number of parishioners who volunteered to man a pro-life literature table at the Fair. I don't drive. So I had to give instructions like so:

1. [email] No problem, I'll leave the tickets in the Adoration Chapel on the little table at the left. You can pick them up anytime before Saturday. This is all you'll need. [Knowing we all get to the Chapel at least once a week, probably more.]

2. [note] In each ticket envelope I put a note showing how to get to the Fair's designated parking areas, which gate to go in, and how to get to Bldg. 4 where our pro-life table is.

3. [instructions] At the pro-life table I put instructions on how to handle T-shirt and button sales, and best ways to get people to sign the petition. "How to" and "how not to" deal with non-pro-life people who might distract them.

4. [card] I also left a card on the table saying that if they had any questions, they could call me, or Michelle the overall coordinator, and if there were any hassles over the exhibit space they could call the Fair Security office, giving phone number.

Now. Would it make sense if somebody said, "I did pick up the envelope with the tickets, but I couldn't do any more than that because you said that's all I'd need"?

Obviously, that would be nonsense.

Here's what I'm getting at. This is the difficulty with simply saying, without further reflection, that Scripture is in itself sufficient, "that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." (II Tim. 3:17)

First, Scripture doesn't say that Scripture in itself is sufficient. It says Scripture is "profitable" for "teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness," --- Amen. Yes, it is --- but it dosn't say it's sufficient. The meaning is "with that, along with everything else, you'll be complete" --- NOT "with that ALONE you'll be complete." Paul himself says it needs the the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

If this passage actually meant "sufficient," it would mean the Scriptures Timothy knew when he was growing up as a boy -- that's who he's talking to, and what he's referring to --- were sufficient. When Timohy was growing up, many of the Epistles and none of the Gospels had not yet been written!

So if Paul is saying THOSE Scriptures --- the ones Timothy had already leanred --- were "sufficient," he would be saying that the New Testament was not necessary!

But of course, that's not what he meant at all.

So, basically, we have Paul saying to hold fast to Tradition (2 Thess 2:15); and he tells Timothy to "continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it" (2 Tim. 3:14) RIGHT before he tells him the value of the Scipture he learned as a boy; and you have Jesus telling his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and anyone who rejects you, rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ.

All of them got this charge, to transmit Christ's truths by preaching. ALL of them did not leave written Scriptures: (most did not). But they all had this authority to preach and teach. Hence the truths were transmitted by written word, by spoken word, and by the precept and example of the Apostles themselves.

So when you say "Where is THAT in Scriptures" or "How do you get THAT interpretation? Isn't it just speculation?" we can legitimtely say, "The Church handed this down from the days of the APostles. This is how the Church judged the meaning and interpretation down thrugh the centuries."

Jesus Himself said that if there's some kind of dispute, some kind of correction that has to be handed down, you should take it to the Church (Matthew 18:17) and Paul reinforces this strongly, calling the Church "The pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). Back to my little analogy. The Bible itself (like my initial e-mail to my friends) points you to these other resources (the preaching, the example, the rulings of Apostles, the aauthority of the Church) -- it's the Bible itslef which says, "Here's where you can go for the truth."

Please excuse typos.

Now I'm off to some other stuff. A tomato sandwich would be nice... :o) And sorry for the length. I didn't have enough time to write shorter :oO.

[LearsFool]

Aha, the old explain-by-analogy trick! I've seen it performed once or twice. If you'll permit me, I'll try my hand at it as well. :-)

You write a brief note to the pro-life volunteers, as follows:

"For some time now you've heard the pro-life argument. And you've even heard me dispute with pro-death people from time to time. That's all good stuff, and you've learned much from it. Hang onto it.

"You'll see and hear more, and will continue to improve as you use what you've learned, and as more of our arguments, approaches, practices, and traditions are documented for future reference.

"Meanwhile, you know what we've taught you to do. Stick to the script, since it is backed by authority. Remember what you've see me and the others do, and be imitators of us.

"We're documenting this as we go, so you'll always have the original to refer back to at any time, should anybody come along with 'new ideas' and try to pull you off-course.

"And just as the first edition was useful to get you this far, this second edition will be every bit as authoritative and will tell you everything you need to know. Bottom line: If it ain't in there, you won't need to know it."

--------------------------

It's interesting how often we find this theme in the NT writings. Peter, for instance:

"And I think it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle cometh swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ signified unto me. Yea, I will give diligence that at every time ye may be able after my decease to call these things to remembrance."

He accomplished that goal by writing two epistles. (Some suggest that Mark's gospel is also mainly an account of Peter's experience.)

Luke, also:

"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus; that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed."

And John:

"That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us); that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ: and these things we write, that our joy may be made full."

Explain to me again, how it is that I can need anything else? /rhetorical

This is what I keep trying to get across to these young Mormon "elders" who knock on my door: The Bible says it's all I need. If it's false, it's altogether useless. But if it's true, then what else do I need?

[Springfield Reformer]

Yes, the Scriptures do speak of themselves as sufficient. However, it is somewhat problematic to substitute the term "Bible" for "Scripture" in such a statement, because this sufficiency is bound up more in what Scripture is by it's nature as theopneustos, "God-breathed" writing, than in the development of the Biblical canon at any given moment of history.

Even more problematic is when this sufficiency is taken beyond the limits of its stated purpose. We who believe in Sola Scriptura do not propose that all knowledge is bound up in Scripture.  Only that knowledge which is sufficient to the purpose of knowing Christ and pleasing God. Paul covers both of these in 1Timothy 3:14-17:

(14) But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Now it's true that Paul wants Timothy to remember what he learned, presumably from Paul. However, please note that the passage does NOT suggest that Paul taught anything not contained in the Scriptures.  In fact, the opposite is inferred, because Paul is telling Timothy to continue in the faith because he has been assured of the truth, both because he heard it straight from Paul, and because he has known the Scriptures from childhood, which Scriptures would confirm to Timothy the truthfulness of the Gospel Paul preached.

Note carefully how he frames it: "thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation."  The word “able” here means “power,” (dunamena) and describes Scripture as having the power to make Timothy wise (sophisai) unto (up to the level of) (eis), salvation (soterian) which is by faith in Jesus Christ. He doesn't say Scripture can get Timothy partway there, but some extra oral tidbits are necessary to complete the journey. No, he says Timothy can be made wise all the way up to salvation through the Scriptures. They have that power:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick [old English “alive”], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But how do mere words on a page have such power? Paul recognizes and addresses that natural question. The answer? Scripture is God-breathed (theo-pneustos). And he doesn't stop there. He keeps augmenting this power of God-breathed Scripture. Not only can it lead to your salvation, Timothy, but it's profitability extends even further. How far? To the point of making the man of God "perfect" (artios) in the sense of complete or mature.  How complete? Absolutely complete preparation for any and all good works.  Hence the sufficiency of the means, Scripture, may be judged by the completeness of the result it has the power to produce, a person totally equipped to please God and enjoy Him forever.

BTW, the two terms are related to each other. "thoroughly furnished" (exartizo) is an amplification, a doubling down of "complete" (artios).  It's clear from this that he doesn't want Timothy to miss the point that because he has the God-breathed Scriptures, he has what he needs both for salvation and for living a life pleasing to God.  It would be laughably incongruous for Paul to be making the point with such vigor, only to leave out all the other stuff Timothy also needed, some unquantifiable body of oral tradition that leaks out every few centuries with some new indispensable dogma. Paul here has drawn a line around Scripture and dared anything else to even pretend to be its equal for the purpose of leading souls to salvation in Christ and governing their walk with God. And in that purpose, it will not fail:

Isa 55:10-11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Peace,

SR