Posted on 08/17/2014 10:21:22 AM PDT by wmfights
I hope you enjoy this series from John Walvoord as much as I do. I try to post a new part every Sunday. I figure that gives us a week to read it (they are long) digest it and make comments.
I had some time to peruse the thread resulting from part 8.
The question of “what (or who) is Israel” is a fascinating one. (To me). I’m sorry I don’t see where that was specifically addressed in part 8.
Regardless I’d like an answer to it too. But here are my thoughts:
I think it’s pretty clear that Israel (as a nation, in the OT) was comprised of a chosen people. Favored by God. That is, they were set apart, or called out from the rest of humanity for a special task.
Now the word “church” means “called out or set apart” I believe. (I’d appreciate some correction there or anywhere needed). I’m pretty sure it means that though, as well as “the Body of Christ”. The two meanings aren’t dissimilar or conflicting. Those who are chosen by God, set apart by God, are then in the Body of Christ.
So I’m not sure why it’s so “bad” to believe that Israel, even as a nation is the Church. The church being those called out by God, chosen by Him.
This is seen in the OT with the Jews. It’s seen more clearly in the NT when the church is revealed to have a broader meaning than that which was understood by the Jews.
This doesn’t exclude the Jews. Indeed, to those who remain in the church by accepting the entire revelation of God to man, i.e., basically becoming Christians, they will indeed receive the promises made to Israel in the OT, as well as any other Christian.
So no promises are broken by believing the Church is Israel. All the promises due the bride of Christ will be fulfilled to Jew and Gentile alike, who are part of the Body of Christ, i.e., the called out ones, the chosen.
How is this wrong? (This question is for anyone not just you WM). I don’t see how it could be wrong. It does seem to me though in explaining how it’s wrong, one must explain what Israel is, if *not* the Church.
Thanks,
"All the promises due Israel in the OT will be fulfilled to Jew and Gentile alike, who are part of the Body of Christ, i.e., the called out ones, the chosen."
The bold portion is the correction. Thanks.
I understand it that every reference in either testament of a woman, mother, queen, birth, labor, arc, and anything else that can be imagined is a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus...Therefore, you must be wrong...
Not accurate...Christians receive the spiritual promises...The Jews receive the physical promises; the land...They received the promise in part but will be completely fulfilled during the Millenniel reign of Jesus Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem...
While some Jews have joined the church (small c), the entirety of the Jews will turn to Jesus when he removes the blindness from them, after the church is gone...
Excellent references and I agree with your commentary of mercy.
In addition to boatbums references, roamer and afvet add depth as well.
So question answered again.
Take Romans chapters 9 through 11 and replace every instance of the words brethren, kinsmen, Israelites, Israel, Jacob, children of Israel, the Jews, people, seed, nation, seed of Abraham, remnant, olive tree, and branches with the word "church."
now do that same transformation in every book of the Bible, except for those portions which reflect poorly on "the church." Once you have done this exercise you will have the answer to your question.
Stick with the series. I think you will see your mistake as the OT promises are reviewed.
Israel: What do Catholics believe about the Jewish people?
The link explains the Catholic view, that "Israel" is comprised of both all Jews and "New Israel" (Jewish and Gentile believers starting with the twelve Jewish Apostles).
wrong, the Catholic Church has always taught the Church is spiritual Israel and if a Jew wishes to be saved they must do what a Gentile must do to be saved, they must profess the Catholic Faith and they must be baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and receiving the Holy Spirit. same as Peter preached in Acts 2. the Catholic Church also teaches in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, all are one in Christ.
47, you made my night. this is why I post here. someone needs to defend what Christians have believed for 2,000 years from those who think every Christian prior to the 19th century was an idiot. keep reading, you will see dispensationalism makes no sense and that’s why no one believed it for 19 centuries.
I don’t know how many times, I never counted. but certainly the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Church. you don’t need to find the word in the Bible for the concept to be true, unless you buy the JW argument against the Trinity.
LOL, exactly the Kingdom is not of this world because it is a spiritual Kingdom. why make the same mistake the 1st century Jews did and look for a physical Kingdom??
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God
who are God’s people today?
Zec 12:4 “In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness”
boy, that will be something to see when all those horses are smited and the soldiers on them go mad. see how silly dispensationalism is?
this is a jump ball since I am told we defined “Israel” ( I agree with you 47, I don’t see it anywhere but that should tell you something )
Golda Meir died in the country of Israel, a Jewess who never believed in Jesus Christ from all accounts.
two questions that can be answered yes or no:
was Golda Meir part of Israel as defined in the Bible?
was Golda Meir saved, assuming she never believed in Jesus Christ?
let’s see who can answer two simple yes or no questions.
” The Jews ceased not from being a nation through their captivity in Babylon, nor through their destruction by the Romans; they continue a distinct nation and people to this day, though scattered throughout the nations of the world: though this rather refers to the spiritual Israel, the holy nation and peculiar people; Christ will have a seed to serve him as long as the sun and moon endure; his church shall continue to the end of the world; it is built on a rock; and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it”
well BB there is good news and bad news.
the good news is at least today you are cutting and pasting from people that are not hostile to Christianity and appear at least to believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus Christ. bravo.
the bad news for you, is maybe next time you should read what you are posting. Gill’s commentary specifically says this Scripture applies to spiritual Israel, the Church, the holy nation and peculiar people. he also says the Church will be here until the end of the world. Gill accepts the historical orthodox Christian belief and utterly rejects the 19th century invention of dispensationlism.
“While some Jews have joined the church (small c), the entirety of the Jews will turn to Jesus when he removes the blindness from them, after the church is gone”
47, this quote is typical of dispensationalists. an assertion is made, but no Scripture is given to back it up.
The Scriptures are clear, Jesus will have one second coming and when he comes again, it will be Judgement Day, the end of the world. 2 Peter 3:3-10.
I will say the fact Israel has become a country does have one significance to it, namely it is a sign where are very close to the second coming and end of the world.
Jesus cursed national Israel in Mark 11:12-25 when he cursed the fig tree, a type of national Israel. He stated it would never bear fruit again and unbelieving national Israel has not born spiritual fruit since then.
in Matthew 24, where Jesus is explaining the conditions right before he returns a second time and the end of the world, he says in v32 to learn a lesson from the fig tree ( national Israel ), when it puts forth its leaves ( i.e. when they become a country again ) you know summer is coming. the Jesus said, when you see these things, he near, even at the gates.
but of course the biggest reason Jesus will return soon is the great falling away we are witnessing in the Church, something unseen for 2,000 years. and Satan has been loosed for a short time and has taken his seat in the temple of God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
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