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To: Jeremiah Jr; Phinneous; All
As both a Noachide and a "literalist young earth creationist" I suppose I had best leave a comment on this thread.

It is true that there are Orthodox Jews, even Charedim, who accept the "scientific" chronology and interpretation of Genesis (Rabbi 'Aryeh Kaplan was one of these), though I understand that most do not. It is also true that even some "Modern Orthodox" reject the cosmogony of "science."

Unfortunately, non-Jews know nothing about Qabbalah and I am not sure we are supposed to. Even pious and learned Jews are not supposed to start learning it until they are forty years old. The tendency on FR and among chrstians is to make Qabbalah into a punching bag and blame it from leading Jews "astray" from chrstianity (a religion they were never commanded to believe in the first place). I can only say that from my experience (limited, it is true, but still more than most non-Jews on FR) it is the Qabbalists and mystics who are most dedicated to the literal truth of Genesis while the anti-Qabbalists tend to be hyper-rationalists who have no problem with evolution or secular chronology. I have seen anti-Qabbalah sites which are quite friendly to evolution whereas the Chabadniks (for example) are among the most dedicated to the the historicity of Genesis. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe (zt"l) was a staunch creationist who held the line while many others were caving in. And here is a book published just last year by a distinguished rabbi and scholar on this very subject, defending the historicity of Genesis from modern rationalist/scientific critiques within Orthodoxy.

I will make two more points:
1)Regardless of the interpretation of the days of creation, once Adam and Eve are created on Day Six we begin dealing with actual history and a literal chronology. Ie, Adam actually lived 930 years, the Flood and Dispersion actually occurred, and Noah died when Abraham was 58 years old. I am unaware of anyone in traditional Orthodoxy, Charedi or "Modern," who would deny this, though I'm sure in this day and age many calling themselves "Orthodox" (defined exclusively as practice rather than belief) who do.
2)"Science" speculates on events of the distant past based on observation of the world as it exists and operates today. The notion that this is valid is based on nothing but an assumption. Why should the process of creation follow laws that were not even in existence at the time? Why would not the universe begin to function according to natural law only after the act of creation was complete? This is a perfectly rational question which advocates of scientific cosmogony never seem to get around to answering. They often insult creationists for not knowing much about paleontology, biology, astrology, cosmology, etc., but what have such subjects to do with the absolutely unique creation of the objects of the study of those fields? That the current laws of biology or astrology can throw light on the events in which life or the stars were created from nothing is a modern conceit with no external justification other than the claim that "G-d would never do that!" And why wouldn't He, especially considering that the alternative attributes falsehood and errors to the Holy Torah (chas vechalilah!)?

Well, that's my two sheqels' worth.

51 posted on 08/12/2014 9:34:16 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Throne and Altar! [In Jerusalem!!!])
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To: Zionist Conspirator

ZC are you sure you’re not a rabbi ;)
Bravo Zulu, nicely stated.


54 posted on 08/12/2014 10:19:58 AM PDT by Phinneous
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Re your #2.

What is the meaning of Psa 19(18):1-3 assuming the laws of nature have changed over time? I will post the passage below to ensure there is no confusion about to which passage I’m referring:

18:1 Unto the end. A Psalm Chapter for David.
18:2 The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.
18:3 Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge.

My question in other words is this: how does creation testify to God, if this creation is impossible to understand by our human mind?


56 posted on 08/12/2014 11:05:54 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The 'formula' is embedded in Bershet.

2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;
2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

The Meaning of "Adam": Insights into the Hebrew Language

Clip:

Adam lived for 930 years. Our Sages explained that he really should have lived for a complete millennium, but he willingly gave up 70 years of his life to someone who would use them to reverse the death sentence that Adam had introduced to mankind. Adam prophetically saw that a potential descendent of his to be born thousands of years later had not been allocated years and he sacrificed 70 of his own so that person would live.

The recipient of those years was none other than King David, the scion of the messianic line which will usher in the end of time. Our tradition teaches that the Moshiach will help bring the world to its perfection and toward revival of the dead, reversing Adam's colossal mistake. Adam knew this, and realized that it was critical for him to ensure that King David would live and accomplish his task in the world. Adam had brought death to the world, and to correct that, he ensured that there would be someone to bring us back to eternal life.
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48956911.html

'Yom' Yud Vav Mem in Bereshet 1 and 2, day.

Our Sages explained that he really should have lived for a complete millennium... 1 yom a thousand years, a thousand years one yom...

58 posted on 08/12/2014 12:25:53 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (EL CHaI)
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