Posted on 07/31/2014 8:11:14 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Yep, it is disappointing. But the popularity of Darbyism was something of a reaction to the enlightenment. They wanted to show they could do theology as well as any other science. So weakly inferred doctrines that might well have been OK as nonbinding speculation among friends took on the status of a litmus test of Christian rationality, when biblically, the support just isn’t there. Happily, since the 70’s and 80’s, many believers who DO accept the Bible as their principal authority for doctrine have been walking this back. Keep in mind that there was a time before Nicea when Arianism was rising in the churches, until Athanasius, nearly single-handedly, beat back the tide of error by a strong appeal to Scriptural authority. Likewise now, Darbyism is a fad, and it is passing, as the light of Scripture is applied. The focus will return to where it belongs, the glory of God in Christ.
“There’s nothing to suggest there will be a great revival in the midst of the growing worldwide apostasy.”
Except, perhaps, for this:
Rev 7:9-10:
“9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
Agreed. And the Bible is ambiguous at best about the timing of the Rapture. And the supposed “God-loves-Christians-and-don’t-want-them-to-suffer” justification for a pre-trib Rapture makes no sense in the face of the many Christians who will come to faith during the Tribulation.
The question then becomes, Should we desire this exit, or should we rejoice that we’re counted worthy to suffer for His sake?
There’s also the issue of what remaining living human beings will populate and reproduce during the Millennium? These are obviously Christians at least initially, because Christ will have slaughtered everybody else (Rev. 19:19-21)
I have seen, studied and heard both doctrines preached. I am of the opinion when the Lord comes it’s done. I have seen congregations and friendships destroyed over this which is sad.
The differences are not worth arguing or fighting about and distracts from the real mission of Christians spreading the Word and seeing souls saved. The main thing repent and get saved, either way it plays out your good.
One thing’s for sure: After it happens, we’ll know what happened.
Regarding the paragraph, well, said and I’m in agreement. I like to ask people what the fate was of those in the bible who preached the word after Jesus’ death and ressurection. And what did Jesus say to expect from the world?
No, Christians Should Not Believe in 'Left Behind's' Rapture Theology, Says Prominent Apologist
About the only thing of interest about this news piece is that Wm. Lane Craig is not toeing the dispensational line.
It gives no indication of where he said this, no links to further sources, or much really much of anything. There's nothing to follow down here.
Anyway...
"This doctrine is not really found in the book of Revelation. If you read the book of Revelation, you won't find any mention of the rapture there," said William Craig,
True, but irrelevant. John's apocalypse is not the only source of end times teaching in the Bible.
That's about the only nit I'd pick with him. Like I said, not much to grab onto here.
I wonder if Jesus Christ will also be kept hidden in the background in the actual movie.Typical of them to loose sight of Christ, in all the end times sturm und drang.
“1 Thess. 4:13-18 -
Meeting the church in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4 - 17”
Both of those are simply descriptions of the first resurrection, so I fail to see how they support a pre-trib rapture in any way.
“1 Corinthians 15:52 -
No signs to herald Christ’s coming for his Church. This will come in the twinkling of an eye.”
In fact, this verse itself contradicts your interpretation, as it supplies a sign (the last trumpet) that accompanies the second coming, which we can place chronologically with other events from prophecies.
“Church spared from the coming wrath:
1 Thessalonians 1:10 -”
The tribulation means troubles, not wrath, so this verse does not state we will be spared from the tribulation.
“Zechariah 14:4 - No meeting in the air, Jesus returns to earth on the Mount of Olives”
Zech 14:4 is only a partial, incomplete description of the second coming. We have more complete descriptions in the New Testament that describe the full sequence of events and reveal that there is no contradiction with Zechariah. The only reason to ignore them in favor of Zechariah is if you want to create an apparent contradiction, in order to cast doubt on the more complete descriptions.
“Revelation 1:7
“every eye shall see him”
Unlike the rapture, Jesus will be seen by all.”
The Bible never says Jesus will be unseen at the first resurrection, so there is no contradiction here.
“Two separate comings of Christ are described in the Bible where the gatherings are clearly different in nature:”
The Bible does describe two comings of Christ, certainly, but one has already happened. There is only one left to come. What you are proposing is a “third coming” of Christ, somehow completely unknown to the Apostles and Christians until proposed in the 19th century.
“If this event is the same as the Rapture of the saints “sheep” there would only be goats left on earth. How could Jesus find sheep on Earth to separate when they’ve already been taken to the air?”
This only appears to be a contradiction because you are misinterpreting the parable. As Matthew 25:31-32 says:
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:”
The phrasing “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, ... then shall he...” is simply an introduction to tell us when the things to be described are going to happen. It does not mean that the events described are necessarily a description of that coming. Rather, it means the subsequent events occur after that time.
Clearly, as Christ is sitting on his throne and judging the gathered nations, before casting many into hellfire, it is the same event described in Revelation as the great white throne judgement, which happens some time after the second coming. The fact that BOTH the sheep and goats are being judged based on their works confirms this conclusion. Christians can not be the sheep being referred to here, because Christians are not judged on their works when it comes to the disposition of our salvation.
I am not talking about the date or time, I am talking about the prophetic timeline, which is the proper understanding of how prophecied events relate chronologically to each other. The Bible is anything but non-specific in that regard.
“And the Bible is ambiguous at best about the timing of the Rapture.”
I disagree. What people call “the rapture” is just the first resurrection, and the Bible is clear about when, at least in relation to the tribulation, that event occurs.
“Should we desire this exit, or should we rejoice that we’re counted worthy to suffer for His sake?”
I think we know what Christ and the Apostles would advise in that regard, don’t we? Certainly those who suffer through the tribulation and overcome will be amply rewarded as well.
“There’s also the issue of what remaining living human beings will populate and reproduce during the Millennium? These are obviously Christians at least initially, because Christ will have slaughtered everybody else (Rev. 19:19-21)”
I think you’d made a mistake reading those verses. Christ slays everybody else who is part of the beast’s army, not everybody else on the face of the earth. During the millennium, the believers are living in the New Jerusalem with Christ, but the rest of the earth is still filled with other people and nations.
The Tribulation already happened, and ended with the destruction of the Temple. John makes this expectation clear in the first verse of the first chapter of Revelation: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants - things which must shortly take place.”
This agrees with the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34, “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
The Bible is very consistent.
I'm with you on both counts. Scripture is plain on both counts, and if someone has to spend 10 verses with some convoluted explanation of why I am misunderstanding the obvious reading of scripture...
One that annoys me is when I bring up a particular thing that is discussed throughout the bible and those that “vehemently” disagree with me keep bringing up the same verse from Revelation to make their case. I’m a student of that book and think there is some great information there about the end times and God’s plan for mankind, but it is a book of MASSIVE symbolism. It says the churches are Lampstands, but I don’t believe it means they are literal lampstands.
“The Tribulation already happened”
O Rly?
When did everyone on the earth have to take a mark on their hand or forehead in order to buy and sell?
When did the two witnesses appear in the streets of Jerusalem, breathing fire on those who tried to harm them? Who also made it stop raining for 3 1/2 years? Who were then killed, then resurrected, and this was witnessed by the entire world?
And of course, the big one, when did Christ return and take all resurrect all the Christians, alive and dead, to glory?
It is a book of symbolism, no doubt. However, a lot of the symbolism is explicitly interpreted by the book itself. You yourself gave an example, in that Revelation tells us the lampstands are churches. It doesn’t leave us wondering as to what the symbolism means.
Of course, not all the symbols are explained so well, but I think, if you are careful in searching for those clues, a lot of the book clarifies itself.
You could be right on both counts.
You yourself gave an example, in that Revelation tells us the lampstands are churches. It doesn’t leave us wondering as to what the symbolism means.
This is why I am post-trib, pre-wrath. I believe the church will be here through the tribulation period, but taken up before the wrath of God is poured out.
Yes, that is true, but is anyone actually trying to argue that they are literal lampstands?
The real arguments over symbolism usually come down to what the symbols represent, not whether they are literal or symbolic in the first place.
Could be. Though, to quote Mr. Joel: “You may be right, I may be crazy.”
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