The Hermeneutic of...Oh I Give Up.

Creative Minority Report ^ | 07/11/14 | Patrick Archbold

[Popman]

I didn't want to spend eternity in hell with the rest of the semi-believers.

semi-believers???

Humm...so if I reject the papal (a mere mortal man) authority over my life and have embraced the Word of God as truth, have full faith in the shed blood of Christ to redeem me from my sins and have been baptised in his name, I'm a semi believers destined to go to hell...?

Just checking...

[Legatus]

You're referring to Dominus Iesus and yes, I remember it. It was published when he was still cardinal Ratzinger. I think the term was "ecclesial communities".

[CynicalBear]

>> As a Christian, we’re supposed to be and act like Jesus as much as possible, except when it comes to judging and condemning, because only He has been granted these powers, which is what He claims.<<

“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24

The Greek word for judge is “krino” and it means “to call into question”. And the next verse requires that we discern what is correct.

2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa. 37:30)

I Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Hmmm……follow what scripture says or follow what you say?

[CynicalBear]

>>As much as to say: I follow Christ; but the Body of Christ? Strictly optional.<<

Those who follow Christ alone and not some organization ARE the body of Christ.

[Jim from C-Town]

It annoys a lot of Catholics. This Pope should be quiet about HIS feelings and be vocal about the true teachings of the Church. They are unchanging. As campion pointed out. There is no deviation. Those who KNOWINGLY turn from the Truth suffer the consequences. You heard the truth and understood it as true. You acted. You are now in the same boat as all Catholics. We KNOW we can't be saved by belief alone. We must strive for Christ like perfection and pray for the mercy of God.

[CynicalBear]

>>I can't believe you people fall for this...<<

And then fall for just the opposite!!! Yet they will deny their duplicity while vociferously proclaiming the Catholic Church never changes it's doctrine.

[Legatus]

In RE: Semi believers.

It was an off the cuff, made up phrase but yes, before I became Catholic I came to believe that outside of the Catholic Church there was no salvation. Now we have a pope who seems to say otherwise, in a big way. Some of his pronouncements make it seem like he believes that INSIDE the Church there is no salvation.

I wrote “semi” believers because people outside of the Church seem to believe almost everything necessary, but not all of it.

[CynicalBear]

>>people outside of the Church seem to believe almost everything necessary, but not all of it.<<

”believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved – and your house”

What do you think Paul left off when he answered the Jailer? Did the Holy Spirit forget to inspire Paul to write the rest of the answer?

[xzins]

This part agrees with Francis. See the parts I've placed in bold and underlined:

however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

I think Francis is saying nothing more than that you don't need to convert already converted people, that the focus is on the unconverted. Proselytism is OK, apparently, but it isn't evangelism.

I think he's right.

[Legatus]

What do you think Paul left off when he answered the Jailer?

That's just my point, believe all of it or don't bother believing any of it.

[narses]

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled The Hermeneutic of...Oh I Give Up., xzins wrote:

I think he’s right.

I agree.

:)
+

[faithhopecharity]

digging up and posting very old or mistaken doctrinal statements from any church (especially those that were anti-Biblical) is of course embarrassing, at least from the perspective of a historian of church history. But, nobody should believe those old teachings are either genuinely Christian or are taught by (in this example) the Roman Catholic Church today.
A Protestant could dig up a number of embarrassing old statements from the 2000 years of Catholic history. A Catholic could dig up a good number of embarrassing old statements from the 500 years of Protetantism. A Jewish believer could dig up a number of embarrassing statements from both of the above. Most of us know that history was not always beautiful. I sincerely believe that too much rehashing of all that stuff does not advance faith today, however. We need to be aware of the past, yes. We do not have to live in the past, nor should we revel in it.
IMHO.

[Legatus]

There’s been a lot of discussion about what “imperfect” communion really means within the Church. That’s certainly not where I want to be when I die.

Btw, Francis reportedly called proselytism “solemn nonsense”. I’m very confused by this pope.

[Legatus]

But, nobody should believe those old teachings are either genuinely Christian or are taught by (in this example) the Roman Catholic Church today.

Then what's the point of a pope if the office can't be trusted to teach the truth?

[xzins]

If Francis is a lurker on FR, then he probably doesn’t like the proselytism threads from either side of this age old antagonism.

(BTW, it’s freep-a-thon, Your Holiness, and a donation would be appreciated. Just log it under Italy, and you’ll be safe. :>)

[Legatus]

If Francis is a lurker on FR

Then the next time he gets it into his head to start phoning people at random I would appreciate a call.

Your Holiness, Prince of Peace in Taylors SC has my number.

[faithhopecharity]

Your point is noted. Church leaders are human, sometimes ( not always) very good and faithful people but human nonetheless.

[CynicalBear]

>>That's just my point, believe all of it or don't bother believing any of it.<<

Believe all of what? Paul’s answer to the jailer when asked “what must I do to be saved” was “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Rather succinct and to the point. My question to you was “what did Paul leave off of his answer”?

[Popman]

...and have embraced the Word of God as truth, have full faith in the shed blood of Christ to redeem me from my sins and have been baptised in his name,

Catholics believe this and because I reject the absolute authority of the RC Church, I am destined to hell...?

Quite pharisaical...

Hard to believe you call yourself a Christian...

[Legatus]

OK, I’ll go along with this. What’s optional then? The virgin birth? The divinity of Christ? The Trinity? The miracles? The crucifixion? The Resurrection?, etc, etc,... that’s all beyond that isolated verse. What are we to believe about Christ, everything except that he established a Church and not a library?