Hence the stupidity of Jewish oral tradition. You can get excommunicated for being right, and yet we must accept their boasting and their truth claims?
By the way, the whole story is part of a theme that there is G-d’s law in it’s absolute, and G-d’s law in it’s subjective application.
It wasn't subjective. God spoke out of heaven and said Eliezar was correct. This is not part of a theme about God's law, but a part of the theme that the Rabbis are something like Demi-Gods, with rights even above God.
Scripturally, a majority of the Jews and their Rabbis have rarely been right, and have instead been condemned by Moses on down as a stiff necked and rebellious people, to whom the covenant was conditional and, inevitably, be put away for a better covenant.
But alas, we’re both waiting and waiting, right? First coming, second coming... it’s been a loooong time. We do believe in a 3rd, eternal temple you know, right?
We wait in peace, as the prophecies have been fulfilled. You wait in silence, or you comfort yourselves with the superstitious nonsense and the protections against them taught by your Rabbis, such as giving your kids epilepsy if you have sex with your wife too soon after going to the bathroom (a demon is hooked on you):
"The Rabbis taught: 'On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic.'" (Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 70a)
So if you care to, Christian SpecOps warrior, the Rabbi’s first claim is that Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew who did not explicitly call himself G-d (or a god, or whatever.) And that this was adjunct by the apostles. Thoughts?
Christ very clearly claimed to be God, accepted worship, was called God to His face, forgave sins, and even called himself the Lord of the Sabbath day (after disregarding the Pharisees' teachings on the matter), and was accused by the Jews of claiming to be God:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (Joh 8:56-59)
Compare with:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you
The Greek of John also agrees with the Greek of the Septuagint's translation of Exo 3:14.
He accepted worship:
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Accused by the Jews:
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (Joh 5:17-18)
Told to His face:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (Joh 20:28-29)
Forgive sins, leading the scribes to accuse Him of blasphemy:
"And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth." (Mat 9:2-3)
Declares himself Lord of the Sabbath day:
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mar 2:23-28)
Only time for one more tonight, but I KNEW you were typing up a long megilla!
So, discussions on rabbis for later, on your last point:
“And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.” (Mar 2:23-28)
WE take this to demonstrate that he was a Torah observant Jew of the Written and Oral Laws, wherein we teach clearly that in a matter of preserving life, “violate one Sabbath to keep many future Sabbaths.”
It’s lock-step with the Rabbi’s presentation. Your other quotes I’ll have to look into. It seems to me Mark ad-libbed the last part.
At the end of the class, the Rabbi speaks of Christendom pulling itself apart. Were you part of this fine thread at all GPH? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3165205/posts
I’ll wait in silence I guess. (Serenity now Serenity now!) (to quote Mr. Costanza)
Well written, FReeper. Very well written.