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To: dartuser
>>>But Jesus will also have a throne, as the text says (Rev 3) ... and He will sit on it someday... on the earth ... in Jerusalem ... as He said ... and as the OT predicts.<<<

There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Jesus will ever return physically to earth. That "interpretation" can only be found by spiritualizing the scriptures.

>>>I suggest you use your "truck loads of biblical and historical books and commentaries, by legendary authors' and go research the semantic and lexical range of the word (κόσμος) ... there are at least 8 uses of the word κόσμος in NT times ... search on Greek Lexicon, go find them, and look up κόσμος in some of them ... even the lesser ones will have a few meanings.<<<

I cannot read your mind. I have Strong's and Young's concordances at my "fingertips" all the time. If you are disagreeing with something I wrote, please be a little more precise. Condescension and patronization are not generally considered good or desirable debating skills. In my case, it makes me believe someone has something to hide.

>>>And for the record, the majority of those legendary authors do not hold your aberrant view, unless of course you are only searching out those who agree with you ... which would be consistent with your style.<<<

If that were true, I would not know so much about the doctrine of the dispensational cult. I realize you intended that to be an insult, but you are not very good at it. I recommend you stick with the facts. You will go far, if you do.

>>>I have heard you claim that the early church fathers were of your persuasion ... that is a blatantly false statement. <<<

I don't recall making such a claim. I have claimed that some of the early church fathers demonstrated certain preterist and post-millennial views, though I don't recall using those labels. Perhaps you can show us where I made such claims. It would go far in increasing your credibility

>>>Schaff (go look him up in your vast resources) is the standard translation for the fathers ... go read what he knew was the predominant eschatological view of the early church ... until the RCC came along around 300AD. I won't tell you ... go look it up ... if you have the courage ... or are you just going to claim that Schaff is a lousy historian as well lol; then you might as well just go back to sleep.<<<

Thanks for the recommendation; but I have most of Schaff's work, and he is an excellent historian. Did you know he wrote this?

    "On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." [Preface to the Revised Edition, The History of the Christian Church, Volume I, 1907, Apostolic Christianity]

When you say "predominate view," you do not mean "every view," do you? Even well-known dispensationalist Tommy Ice admitted that Eusebius believed in the 70 AD fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:3-34.) And this is Justin Martyr on the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:1-4

    "And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.' And it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For out of Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the world of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we might not lie or deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ." (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 39, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1)

I predict Justin will be stricken off the "good guys" list. LOL!

BTW, where can I find the "rapture" theory of Darby and Scofield in the early church father's writings? I am very curious about that one. I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks,

Philip

83 posted on 06/01/2014 3:22:05 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Jesus will ever return physically to earth.

Act 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Once in a while you come across a passage that really needs no interpretation ... there are no textual or translation issues ... we just need the courage to accept what it plainly says.

96 posted on 06/01/2014 7:16:05 PM PDT by dartuser
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To: PhilipFreneau
Isn't it obvious to you that Justin Martyr has spiritualized the passage for a reason? To make a point about the spread of the gospel and the change in lives as a result of it?

"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

If this passage in Isaiah has been fulfilled ... then how would you characterize World War II?

I will never understand your propensity to deny historical reality so that you can maintain an aberrant theological position.

97 posted on 06/01/2014 7:36:42 PM PDT by dartuser
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