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To: jimmyray

First, there is a parallel in the ‘eternal’ rewards for both the saved & the lost. From Matthew 25:

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If you believe the righteous will enjoy eternal heaven, how can you not believe the damned will similarly be in eternal torment? [Btw, ‘annihilation’ didn’t arise as a doctrine/belief until around the same time as Calvin. It has not always been even a minority view.]

Secondly, Jesus described degrees of punishment. From Luke 12:

42 ‘And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.’

How does degree of punishment fit in with annihilation? Are some annihilated more painfully than others? Is the annihilation of some quick, while of others slow & excruciating?


76 posted on 05/30/2014 9:36:59 AM PDT by Fantasywriter (Any attempt to do forensic work using Internet artifacts is fraught with pitfalls. JoeProbono)
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To: Fantasywriter
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So, you're suggesting that both have eternal life, one in the Lake of Fire., and one in Paradise? I know, in your interpretation, "Eternal Life" is not what those who are alive in the Lake of Fire with immortal bodies possess. Just what do they possess, then?

FWIW, eternal punishment can also be read everlasting-final-absolute punishment, which is irreversable.
John, in Rev20:14, states "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Is death and Hades destroyed, or tortured forever as well? What does Second Death mean, anyway?

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Hebrews 10:27 "but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." I suppose you think "perish" and "consume" actually means kept alive and tortured forever?

The idea of the immortality of the Human soul is not biblical, rather, it's hellenic. God ALONE is immortal, (1 Tim 6:16).

Jude 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed, and are no longer in torment.

78 posted on 05/30/2014 12:18:42 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: Fantasywriter
QUOTE: How does degree of punishment fit in with annihilation? Are some annihilated more painfully than others? Is the annihilation of some quick, while of others slow & excruciating?

This question exists on both sides of the Annihilation debate. Either side acknowledges that those without their names in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15). I understand that they are consumed, whilst you assert they exist in immortal bodily life being punished for eternity. I have no idea how those tossed in will be punished, or how long it lasts. It is nowhere spelt out in scripture, nor do I see a need for conjecture on the point. As Paul said in 1 Cor 4:6 " "Do not go beyond what is written."".

80 posted on 05/30/2014 2:13:38 PM PDT by jimmyray
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To: Fantasywriter
QUOTE: If you believe the righteous will enjoy eternal heaven, how can you not believe the damned will similarly be in eternal torment?

Most But more importantly, the Bible teaches otherwise. Nevertheless, the opposite of Life is Death, not eternal torment. You would have me believe someone kept alive for eternal torment with an imperishable, ever renewing immortal body does not possess life. You have to develop and accept an odd interpretation of the word "Life", not me.

"QUOTE: [Btw, ‘annihilation’ didn’t arise as a doctrine/belief until around the same time as Calvin. It has not always been even a minority view.]

Perhaps you should read Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Magnesians, Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (chapter 5) and Irenaeus: Against Heresies: Book II, Chapter 34. Or especially Arnobius, Against the Heathen (Book II, paragraph 61). They all predated the reformation, if I'm not mistaken.

82 posted on 05/30/2014 2:30:10 PM PDT by jimmyray
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