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To: Mr Rogers

How much time have you spent really studying the Doctrines of Grace? Do you really understand what Calvinists believe and why? Are you sure? That’s are rhetorical questions for you to consider. I have neither the time nor inclination to debate it and you don’t have to prove anything to me.

I was an ardent Arminian for nearly 40 years. Due to a convergence of circumstances, one day I decided to really study what Calvinists believe and why. What I discovered changed my life and ultimately my entire family. Short of salvation it’s the best thing that ever happened to me. I now realize what I had been presented as “Calvinism” was a weak caricature. That same caricature is the common understanding among American evangelicals.


15 posted on 05/28/2014 8:37:16 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

My time-line and experience is similar to yours.

Bottom line for me: God is either sovereign - or he is not.

If he is not sovereign (irresistible grace), then he can not be omnipotent, and therefore he is not God...


23 posted on 05/28/2014 8:50:56 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: .45 Long Colt

I have spent enough time to reject TULIP. The problem is hinted at in the article: “From an early age, Calvin was a precocious student who excelled at Latin and philosophy...Calvin wrote his magnum opus, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, at the age of 27”.

Calvin should have spent more time learning of the Lord from studying scripture and less time trying to impose a 27 year old’s philosophy upon it.

He would read we are “dead” in our sins, and take that as a literal statement, without looking at the many passages that describe us as sick, captive, blind, enemies of God, etc. He failed to realize that scripture is often written of in a poetic style which is not meant to be taken literally, at least not out of context. For example:

“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.”

That is hard to reconcile with:

““There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

At least, it is out of context. In context, one can understand it simply enough without concluding there is a conflict between the two. A little humility goes a long way when reading God’s Word, and humility is not something 27 year old men writing systematic theology are noted for. It reminds me of J Vernon McGhee’s comment that there were 2 days in his life when he could have explained all there was to know about God - the day he entered seminary, and the day he left!

One of the main failures of Calvin was his failure to grasp the corporate nature of election: we are elect IN CHRIST. Being “In Christ” is something that a tribal herder could understand, but that is foreign to someone raised in a world of nation/states. We are the Elect because we are “In Christ”. This quote explains it fairly well:

“We have already noted that God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. More specifically, God chose Abraham and his descendants, but limited his election of Abraham’s descendants to only some of them by his choice of Isaac as the head of the covenant through whom Abraham’s covenant descendants were to be reckoned. He then limited his election of the covenant descendants even further by his choice of Jacob as the head of the covenant. At the same time, and as already pointed out above, people not naturally related to Jacob and so not part of the elect people could join the chosen people, becoming part of the elect. On the other hand, individual members of the elect people could be cut off from the covenant people due to violation of the covenant, rendering them non-elect.

Finally, the Apostle Paul would argue, God limited his election even further to Christ as the head of the New Covenant (Gal. 3–4; see especially 3:16; cf. Rom. 3–4; 8), which is the fulfillment of the Old. Paradoxically, this also widened the election of God’s people because all who are in Christ by faith are chosen by virtue of their identification with Christ the corporate covenantal head, opening covenant membership to Gentiles as Gentiles. Just as God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Jacob/Israel, the Church was chosen in Christ (as Eph. 1:4 puts it). And as Ephesians 2 makes clear, Gentiles who believe in Christ are in him made to be part of the commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the saints, members of God’s household, and possessors of the covenants of promise (2:11-22; note especially vv. 12, 19). Indeed, any Jews who did not believe in Jesus were cut off from the elect people, and any believing Gentiles who stop believing will likewise be cut off, while anyone who comes to faith, whether Jew or Gentile, will be incorporated into God’s people (Rom. 11:17-24).

In the New Covenant, God’s people are chosen corporately as a consequence of their union with Christ, which is effected by faith. While this is not quite the traditional Arminian position, it fully supports Arminian theology because it is a conditional election. Most directly, such election is conditioned on being in Christ. But then being in Christ is itself conditioned on faith, meaning that the divine election of God’s people and the election of individuals for salvation is ultimately conditional on faith in Christ. (Misconceptions, pp. 7, 8, emphasis his)”

http://evangelicalarminians.org/corporate-election-quotes/

Thus Calvin ended up exalting election over faith, so that we are saved by grace thru election, and then given faith to be saved. In reality, we are saved by grace thru faith, and then placed “In Christ” where we are predestined to become like Christ.

When Jesus commanded us to “Repent and believe”, he was not giving an impossible command. God took the initiative in revealing Himself, and reaching down to man, and making it possible for man to respond. Those who respond with faith - faith is something we do in response to someone else, by definition - are placed In Christ, and sealed with the Holy Spirit. And In Christ, we have access to everything:

“It is by God’s grace that you have been saved. 6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world. 7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus. 8-9 For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it. 10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.”


39 posted on 05/28/2014 10:11:55 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: .45 Long Colt
I was an ardent Arminian for nearly 40 years. Due to a convergence of circumstances, one day I decided to really study what Calvinists believe and why. What I discovered changed my life and ultimately my entire family.

And you don't see a big red flag problem here, (not personal, or that you are unusual) ?

45 posted on 05/29/2014 5:31:54 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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