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Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol
reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock

Full Title: Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Roman Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

In the field of Reformation studies, Professor Brad Gregory is somebody for whom I have immense respect.  Those outside the discipline of history are possibly unaware of the ravages which postmodernism brought in its wake, making all narratives negotiable and fuelling a rise in interest in all manner of trivia and marginal weirdness.  Dr. Gregory is trained in both philosophy and history and has done much to place the self-understanding of human agents back at the centre of historical analysis.  Thus, for those of us interested in the Reformation, he has also played an important role in placing religion back into the discussion.  For that, I and many others owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I therefore find myself in the odd and uncomfortable position of writing a very critical review of his latest book, The Unintended Reformation (Belknap Harvard, 2011). The book itself is undoubtedly well-written and deeply learned, with nearly a third of the text devoted to endnotes.  It is brilliant in its scope and execution, addressing issues of philosophy, politics and economics.  Anyone wanting a panoramic view of the individuals, the institutions and the forces which shaped early modern Europe should read this work. Yet for all of its brilliance, the book does not demonstrate its central thesis, that Protestantism must shoulder most of the responsibility for the various things which Dr. Gregory dislikes about modern Western society, from its exaltation of the scientific paradigm to its consumerism to its secular view of knowledge and even to global warming. I am sympathetic with many of Dr. Gregory's gripes about the world of today; but in naming Protestantism as the primary culprit he engages in a rather arbitrary blame game.

Dr. Gregory's book contains arguments about both metaphysics and what we might call empirical social realities. On the grounds that debates about metaphysics, like games of chess, can be great fun for the participants but less than thrilling for the spectators, I will post my thoughts on that aspect of the book in a separate blog entry. In this article, I will focus on the Papacy, persecution and the role of the printing press.  This piece is more of a medieval jousting tournament than a chess game and will, I trust, provide the audience with better spectator sport.

One final preliminary comment: I am confident that my previous writings on Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics indicate that I am no reincarnation of a nineteenth century 'No popery!' rabble-rouser. I have always tried to write with respect and forbearance on such matters, to the extent that I have even been berated at times by other, hotter sorts of Protestants for being too pacific. In what follows, however, I am deliberately combative.  This is not because I wish to show disrespect to Dr. Gregory or to his Church or to his beliefs; but he has set the tone by writing a very combative book. I like that. I like writers who believe and care about the big questions of life. But here is the rub: those who write in such a way must allow those who respond to them to believe with equal passion in their chosen cause and to care about it deeply and thus to be equally combative in their rejoinders.

A key part of the book's argument is the apparent anarchy created by the Protestant emphasis on the perspicuity of scripture. In this, Dr. Gregory stands with his Notre Dame colleague, Christian Smith, as seeing this as perhaps the single weakest point of Protestantism. He also rejects any attempt to restrict Protestantism to the major confessional traditions (Reformed, Anglican and Lutheran) as he argues that such a restriction would create an artificial delimitation of Protestant diversity. Instead, he insists on also including those groups which scholars typically call radical reformers (essentially all other non-Roman Christian sects which have their origins in the turn to scripture of the Reformation). This creates a very diverse and indeed chaotic picture of Protestantism such that no unifying doctrinal synthesis is possible as a means of categorizing the whole.  

I wonder if I am alone in finding the more stridently confident comments of some Roman Catholics over the issue of perspicuity to be somewhat tiresome and rather overblown. Perspicuity was, after all, a response to a position that had proved to be a failure: the Papacy.  Thus, to criticize it while proposing nothing better than a return to that which had proved so inadequate is scarcely a compelling argument.

Yes, it is true that Protestant interpretive diversity is an empirical fact; but when it comes to selectivity in historical reading as a means of creating a false impression of stability, Roman Catholic approaches to the Papacy provide some excellent examples of such fallacious method.  The ability to ignore or simply dismiss as irrelevant the empirical facts of papal history is quite an impressive feat of historical and theological selectivity. Thus, as all sides need to face empirical facts and the challenges they raise, here are a few we might want to consider, along with what seem to me (as a Protestant outsider) to be the usual Roman Catholic responses:

Empirical fact: The Papacy as an authoritative institution was not there in the early centuries. 
Never mind.  Put together a doctrine of development whereby Christians - or at least some of them, those of whom we choose to approve in retrospect on the grounds we agree with what they say  - eventually come to see the Pope as uniquely authoritative.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was corrupt in the later Middle Ages, building its power and status on political antics, forged documents and other similar scams. 
Ignore it, excuse it as a momentary aberration and perhaps, if pressed, even offer a quick apology. Then move swiftly on to assure everyone it is all sorted out now and start talking about John Paul II or Benedict XVI.  Whatever you do, there is no need to allow this fact to have any significance for how one understands the theory of papal power in the abstract or in the present.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was in such a mess at the beginning of the fifteenth century that it needed a council to decide who of the multiple claimants to Peter's seat was the legitimate pope.  
Again, this was merely a momentary aberration but it has no significance for the understanding of papal authority.  After all, it was so long ago and so far away.

Empirical fact: The church failed (once again) to put its administrative, pastoral, moral and doctrinal house in order at the Fifth Lateran Council at the start of the sixteenth century.  
Forget it.  Emphasise instead the vibrant piety of the late medieval church and then blame the ungodly Protestants for their inexplicable protests and thus for the collapse of the medieval social, political and theological structure of Europe.  

Perhaps it is somewhat aggressive to pose these points in such a blunt form. Again, I intend no disrespect but am simply responding with the same forthrightness with which certain writers speak of Protestantism. The problem here is that the context for the Reformation - the failure of the papal system to reform itself, a failure in itself lethal to notions of papal power and authority - seems to have been forgotten in all of the recent aggressive attacks on scriptural perspicuity.  These are all empirical facts and they are all routinely excused, dismissed or simply ignored by Roman Catholic writers. Perspicuity was not the original problem; it was intended as the answer.   One can believe it to be an incorrect, incoherent, inadequate answer; but then one must come up with something better - not simply act as if shouting the original problem louder will make everything all right. Such an approach to history and theology is what I call the Emerald City protocol: when defending the great and powerful Oz, one must simply pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.  

Given the above empirical facts, the medieval Papacy surely has chronological priority over any of the alleged shortcomings of scriptural perspicuity in the history of abject ecclesiastical and theological disasters. To be fair, Dr. Gregory does acknowledge that 'medieval Christendom' was a failure (p. 365) but in choosing such a term he sidesteps the significance of the events of the late medieval period for papal authority. The failure of medieval Christendom was the failure of the Papacy. To say medieval Christendom failed but then to allow such a statement no real ecclesiastical significance is merely an act of throat-clearing before going after the people, the Protestants, who frankly are in the crosshairs simply because it appears one finds them and their sects distasteful. Again, to be fair, one cannot blame Roman Catholics for disliking Protestants: our very existence bears testimony to Roman Catholicism's failure. But that Roman Catholics who know their history apparently believe the Papacy now works just fine seems as arbitrary and selective a theological and historical move as any confessionally driven restriction of what is and is not legitimate Protestantism.  

As Dr. Gregory brings his narrative up to the present, I will do the same. There are things which can be conveniently ignored by North American Roman Catholic intellectuals because they take place in distant lands. Yet many of these are emblematic of contemporary Roman Catholicism in the wider world. Such, for example, are the bits of the real cross and vials of Jesus' blood which continue to be displayed in certain churches, the cult of Padre Pio and the relics of Anthony of Padua and the like (both of whom edged out Jesus and the Virgin Mary in a poll as to who was the most prayed to figure in Italian Catholicism). We Protestants may appear hopelessly confused to the latest generation of North American Roman Catholic polemicists, but at least my own little group of Presbyterian schismatics does not promote the veneration of mountebank stigmatics or the virtues of snake-oil.

Still, for the sake of argument let us accept the fideistic notion that the events of the later Middle Ages do not shatter the theology underlying the Papacy.  What therefore of Roman Catholic theological unity and papal authority today? That is not too rosy either, I am afraid.  The Roman Catholic Church's teaching on birth control is routinely ignored by vast swathes of the laity with absolute impunity; Roman Catholic politicians have been in the vanguard of liberalizing abortion laws and yet still been welcome at Mass and at high table with church dignitaries; leading theologians cannot agree on exactly what papal infallibility means; and there is not even consensus on the meaning and significance of Vatican II relative to previous church teaching. Such a Church is as chaotic and anarchic as anything Protestantism has thrown up. 

Further, if Dr. Gregory wants to include as part of his general concept of Protestantism any and all sixteenth century lunatics who ever claimed the Bible alone as sole authority and thence to draw conclusions about the plausibility of the perspicuity of scripture, then it seems reasonable to insist in response that discussions of Roman Catholicism include not simply the Newmans, Ratzingers and Wotjylas but also the Kungs, Rahners, Schillebeeckxs and the journalists at the National Catholic Reporter.  And why stop there?  We should also throw in the sedevacantists and Lefebvrists for good measure.  They all claim to be good Roman Catholics and find their unity around the Office of the Pope, after all. Let us not exclude them on the dubious grounds that they do not support our own preconceived conclusions of how papal authority should work.  At least Protestantism has the integrity to wear its chaotic divisions on its sleeve.

Moving on from the issue of authority, we find that Dr. Gregory also argues that religious persecution is a poisonous result of the confessionalisation of Europe into warring religious factions. Certainly, the bloodshed along confessional lines in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was terrible, but doctrinal disagreements did not begin with the Reformation. The New Testament makes it clear that serious doctrinal conflict existed within the church even during apostolic times (I hope I am allowed, for the sake of argument, to assume that the New Testament is perspicuous enough for me to state that with a degree of confidence); and the link between church and state which provided the context for bloodshed over matters of theological deviancy was established from at least the time of Priscillian in the late fourth century. It was hardly a Protestant or even a Reformation innovation.

When it comes to the empirical facts of Catholic persecution, Dr. Gregory only mentions the Inquisition twice. That is remarkably light coverage given its rather stellar track record in all that embarrassing auto da fe business. Moreover, he mentions it first only in a Reformation/post-Reformation context. Yet Roman Catholic persecution of those considered deviants was not simply or even primarily a response to Reformation Protestantism but a well-established pattern in the Middle Ages. No doubt the Spanish Jews and Muslims, the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Lollards, the Hussites and many other religious deviants living before the establishment of any Protestant state might have wished that their sufferings had received a more substantial role in the narrative and more significance in the general thesis. Sure, Protestantism broke the Roman Catholic monopoly on persecution and thus played a shameful and ignominious part in its escalation; but it did not establish the precedents, legally, culturally or practically.

Finally, the great lacuna in this book is the printing press. Dr. Gregory has, as I noted above, done brilliant work in putting self-understanding back on the historical agenda and thus of grounding the history of ideas in historical realities rather than metaphysical abstractions. The danger with this, however, is that material factors can come to be somewhat neglected. His thesis - that Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge and paved the way for its secularization - does not take into account the impact of the easy availability of print. The printed book changed everything: it fuelled literacy rates and it expanded the potential for diversity of opinion. I suspect there is a very plausible alternative, or at least supplementary, narrative to the 'Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge' thesis: the printing press did it because it made impossible the Church's control of the nature, range, flow and availability of knowledge.

Ironically, the printing press is one of the great success stories of pre-Reformation Catholic Europe. One might argue that it was a technological innovation and thus not particularly 'Catholic' in that sense. That is true; but for some years after it was invented it was unclear whether it would be successful enough to replace medieval book production. In fact, its success was significantly helped by the brisk fifteenth century trade in printed breviaries and missals and the indulgences produced to fund war against the Ottomans. In other words, it was the vibrancy of late medieval Catholic piety, of which Dr. Gregory makes much, that ensured the future of the printing press and thereby the shipwrecking of the old, stable forms of knowledge.

The Roman Catholic Church knew the danger presented by the easy transmission of, and access to, knowledge which the printing press provided. That is why it was so assiduous in burning books in the sixteenth century and why the Index of Prohibited Books remained in place until the 1960s. I well remember being amazed when reading the autobiography of the analytic philosopher and one-time priest, Sir Anthony Kenny, that he had had to obtain special permission from the Church to read David Hume for his doctoral research in the 1950s. At the start of the twenty-first century, Rome may present herself as the friend of engaged religious intellectuals in North America but she took an embarrassingly long time even to allow her people free access to the most basic books of modern Western thought. Women in Britain had the vote, Elvis (in my humble opinion) had already done his best work and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones were starting to churn out hits before Roman Catholics were free to read David Hume without specific permission from the Church.   

Of course, Dr. Gregory knows about the Index; but he seems to see it as a response to Protestantism, not as an extension of the Church's typical manner of handling deviation from its central tenets and practices which stretched back well before the Reformation. And therein lies the ironic, tragic, perplexing flaw of this brilliant and learned book: Dr. Gregory sets out to prove that Protestantism is the source of all, or at least many, of the modern world's ills; but what he actually does is demonstrate in painstaking and compelling detail that medieval Catholicism and the Papacy with which it was inextricably bound up were ultimately inadequate to the task which they set - which they claimed! - for themselves.  Reformation Protestantism, if I can use the singular, was one response to this failure, as conciliarism had been a hundred years before.  One can dispute the adequacy of such responses; but only by an act of historical denial can one dispute the fact that it was the Papacy which failed.

Thanks to the death of medieval Christendom and to the havoc caused by the Reformation and beyond, Dr Gregory is today free to believe (or not) that Protestantism is an utter failure.  Thanks to the printing press, he is also free to express this in a public form. Thanks to the modern world which grew as a response to the failure of Roman Catholicism, he is also free to choose his own solution to the problems of modernity without fear of rack or rope. Yet, having said all that, I for one find it strange indeed that someone would choose as the solution that which was actually the problem in the first place.



TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: hornetsnest
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To: af_vet_1981

The latter phrase “that is what troubles you” is the mind reading part.


261 posted on 04/06/2014 9:53:29 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: daniel1212
You mean like (2 Chronicles 6:14-42: 1028 words)

No, totally scriptural, inspired, and inspiring

Do you think the Sinner's Prayer is scriptural ? Which one?

All the ones that are not quoting texts in Scripture, eg., Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, etc.

Examples from Luke 18 and Matthew 8 are approved.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

262 posted on 04/06/2014 9:54:42 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Religion Moderator
The latter phrase “that is what troubles you” is the mind reading part.

Now I get it; I will rephrase it as a question, "Is that why you object to asking Mary for help, because she is in heaven?"

263 posted on 04/06/2014 9:57:17 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

That would be fine.


264 posted on 04/06/2014 9:58:52 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?


265 posted on 04/06/2014 10:29:13 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: af_vet_1981

You are right. I errantly conflated the Hail Mary with the following KJV text. It was careless reading on my part.

Nevertheless, the Hail Mary, to which I objected, is unsupported as Biblical language, unless one accepts Jerome’s handling of Luke 1:28 as effectively a re-inspration of the same text into Latin with new and significantly different verbiage. In one sense this is identical to the KJV-Onlyist who claims the 1611 KJV is a re-inspiration of the Received Text into English.

Both theories are defective, in that they allow the introduction of novel and incorrect doctrines through human manipulation of the text, which is why reformational Protestants such as myself would tend to reject such theories as fonts of heresy, and press toward the primitive text as far as God enables us.

Your other question concerning approval or non-approval of various translations is a question of ecclesiastical authority, and it goes beyond your original question, which was:

“Can you show me any part of this that is unbiblical or incorrect …”

The authority question has been handled on these threads many times over. I think the RC authority construct is hopelessly circular, but it would probably be redundant and unproductive to go off on that tangent when the question you asked is so much easier to address as a matter of the objective history and content of the text.

To summarize then, there is an entirely Protestant interpretation to all the texts you presented, even the so-called “Hail Mary,” as long as one allows the meaning of the original Greek to prevail. By which I mean that Protestants do see grace in Mary, but her as a recipient of grace, like any other sinner made whole by Christ; and Protestants do see the angel greeting Mary, but with a greeting of rejoicing, not worshipping.

Before you protest, I do understand the purported differences between atria, dulia and hyperdulia, but I do not think the vast majority of rank and file Catholics grasp such fine distinctions, and it puts their souls at risk. I am certain my own Catholic relatives do not. They have merged their feminism with their Marian ideas to create a female deity coequal to Christ. I am sure that is as repugnant to you as it is to me.

However, we have to live our faith, and any doctrines that lead to such dangerous places in practice ought to have the highest degree of Scriptural verification of correctness, for if God says it, no matter how confounding, it must be true. But if God has not said it, woe to that man or woman who presumes to put words in Gods mouth. Eternity is nothing to trifle with.


266 posted on 04/06/2014 10:58:22 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Gamecock
Thank you for the interesting article and review. It's certainly curious how there very rarely can be found unbiased and objective written “history” in the light of the truism that it is usually written by the victors.
267 posted on 04/06/2014 11:09:35 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: af_vet_1981
are apparently denying the Holy Spirit

You appear to be unfamiliar with how Protestant approach the matter of inspiration. We agree with all believers everywhere that God inspired Scripture through His Holy Spirit.

But we do not see that same inspiration in every attempt to translate Scripture. As mentioned above, once you start applying the same level of inspiration to every subsequent translator you subject yourself to the possibility of misconstruing human error for holy writ.

And as a matter of history, God has given us an excellent body of autograph texts to serve as stable reference points for any translation effort. Why should we not use them? They are God's gift to His people.

Which other verses in the Bible do you deny ?

That is in form a loaded question. It is an inferior form of argument, begging the question. I feel certain you are capable of more adroit work. Alter the form to not presume the answer in the question and I will be happy to respond.

268 posted on 04/06/2014 11:09:35 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock
If the Catholic Church is an old anachronistic has-been of a religion - why do you have to talk and write about it every chance you get? you are saved - right? So why do you care what some old Catholics think or say or do? What do you call a person who is preoccupied with someone else’s faith ? I got it - a protestant!

Please be sure and ping me the next time you give that advice to your fellow Catholics posting regular threads discussing "Protestantism" here.

269 posted on 04/06/2014 11:13:31 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: af_vet_1981
So your stumbling block is whether Mary was "full of grace" or not.

It's not a stumbling block for me. It's true that Mary was a recipient of great grace. But that fact doesn't have the entourage of inferences that typical Catholic teaching assigns to it, i.e., it doesn't imply sinlessness etc. The problem is that the Hail Mary, esp. as used in its English form, carries nuances that go beyond the teaching of the primitive text. Those "nuances," however weakly inferred, have been codified and presented as the teaching of Rome. That extra baggage is no stumbling block to me. I see it and step around it. But many precious souls are being injured by it. And so I raise my objection.

As for "we," I am simply speaking as a Christian of Protestant heritage. I do not seek to be an official representative of any human institution, but simply wish to be obedient to Scripture:

1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

270 posted on 04/06/2014 11:23:53 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: goodwithagun
As a Protestant, I can’t stand these Protestants that do this. They even have a creepy ping list for Catholic bashing. It’s embarrassing.

Do you have a similar distaste for the Catholics that do this with regularity here or only when "Protestants" do it?

271 posted on 04/06/2014 11:43:54 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock; Religion Moderator
Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?

Still kicking at the beehive, I see.

272 posted on 04/07/2014 12:33:08 AM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Gamecock
Is Gamecock the Religion Moderator?


273 posted on 04/07/2014 12:55:16 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy
Perhaps we'll need to draw straws from among all our various multiple personalities since the 8-ball appears to be stonewalling. Again. Stupid 8-ball, he never gives a straight answer...

But how are we going to sort it out? It doesn't matter how many straws are drawn, "we" will always keep getting the short one.

Or is this crazy to have back-and-forth talk between the multiples?

I hear it's not so bad when they are never aware of each other, or try to communicate among themselve(s)...

274 posted on 04/07/2014 2:09:52 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: af_vet_1981
Where is Moses' grave ?

If you believed the Book...


Deuteronomy 34:5-6
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.


Where is Elijah's grave ? Where is Enoch's grave ?

I find it amazing that Catholicism can toss out these two guys as examples of what COULD HAVE happened to Mary; but refuse to take MOSES as an example of what might have happened.

275 posted on 04/07/2014 2:39:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981
At least your re-formed theology is not preterist, or Mormon.

Now you've got the lurkers wondering...

Just what is he referring to here with THESE two assertions?

276 posted on 04/07/2014 2:40:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Springfield Reformer
"full of grace" - "Highly favoured"; it mattereth not; for NEITHER can excuse or explain the Catholic church's description of Mary's present POWERS as supernatural.
277 posted on 04/07/2014 2:43:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
Probably not in your Bible because it was changed to suit your denomination.

No WONDER the bookshelves are SO huge at Zondervan's!

With 45,000 (YMMV) different bibles - all in a row...

278 posted on 04/07/2014 2:45:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: goodwithagun
The irony is not strong with you.

You may be right; but the facts are.

279 posted on 04/07/2014 2:45:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: goodwithagun
What matters is that the owner of this site had to intervene and make a strong stand that Catholics are most welcome here and Catholic bashing is not.

Mighty bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

Have you EVIDENCE of what you claim here?


Since you’ve condemned neither FReepers from claiming Catholics aren’t Christians, do you agree?

Agree with what?

That Catholic FReepers say nast things about non-Catholic ones?

YEs - you are correct.

280 posted on 04/07/2014 2:50:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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