Posted on 03/03/2014 9:43:45 AM PST by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
“In your Post 33 to dhG, and since then, you haven’t offered any evidence of your point on cursing...”
Well, no evidence has been requested, but I would be happy to provide it for you if you want it. Actually, I did provide you with an etymology reference a few posts back that demonstrates the conflation of meanings only happened recently and only in the English language. If that’s not enough for you, I’ll happily provide you the references for the Greek and Hebrew words in question that you can satisfy yourself on the point.
“or on why what you believe to be true is relevant to Bible-believing Christians, including why it’s relevant in your view to the disagrrement between dhG and pburgh.”
Incorrect. I’ve stated several times why I think it is important, so I can only assume you just ignored my statements to that effect.
“I look to the original languages and what was meant back then myself, and I typically don’t use “cursing” for “profanity,” but I’ve yet to see where any apparent difference matters, or even amounts to an actual difference in meaning.”
There’s a definite difference in meaning, and if you aren’t aware of it, then that itself demonstrates why the difference matters. How can you understand any passage in the Bible that uses the word, and interpret it in context, if you don’t know the difference between what the Bible is talking about, and the modern concept of “curse words”?
“All I found so far are two pieces, by gtoquestions.org and carm.org, that treat make no distinction between cursing and all the other terms used.”
Well, this is another illustration as to why the point is important, if even respected Christian apologetic organizations are making the mistake and perpetuating it by teaching it to others.
“You’ve said it’s more than just a tangent here but you’ve made that claim without saying anything about how the language point is relevant to the heart issue all, as I said.”
I don’t recall saying anything about “a tangent”, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. I’ve also already told you that my statement was a factual point, not a spiritual one, so I don’t see why you keep expecting me to make some spiritual point about it. If you are worried about spiritual matters, then, as I’ve said before, you still need to understand the literal meaning of verses correctly first, before you can attempt to interpret them spiritually. If that’s not enough for you, I don’t know what more you are looking for.
Thank you for the verification. I’ll proceed as usual.
I can’t cut and paste from my phone, but
On evidence:
This thread and the disagreement between dhG and pburgh related to the spiritual. This is not a language forum but a religion forum. The page on etymology you linked to also doesn’t talk about what you say. It says when it’s believed that the word cuss developed from curse by noting when it first appears in written form. It isn’t enough to look at references for Hebrew and Greek words. If it’s an important issue, I’m sure other Bible-believing Christians with language knowledge have written on it and that’s where I’ll begin. (Cont’d)
On relevance to the disagreement here between dhG and pburgh:
You haven’t so much has said what cursing, in your view, meant in the Bible, much less offered evidence for it. Until you do that, you haven’t shown what your language point claim even is, much less how it matters in a dispute on a heart matter. Both dhG and pburgh, in using the word cursing, meant, in part, foul language. and what dhG was arguing is that unwholesome talk is against God’s Word, and that’s what God’s Word says. (Cont’d)
On the meaning(s) of cursing:
As I said, I tend to avoid using “cursing” and use the word “profanity” instead. That doesn’t mean that I believe “cursing” is wrong to use. In the Bible, though, the context suggests what’s meant, and I’m sure that even people who use cursing and profanity interchangeably are well aware that “to curse” can mean to call down a curse on someone or thing. (Cont’d)
On gotquestions.org and carm.org not making the distinction on curse:
Again, if the modern usage of “cursing” is confusing anyone, or if there’s any sort of problem with it, then where is the concern about it from Bible-believing Christians knowledgeable in languages?
On relevance again:
I addressed my comment to you, dhG and pburgh because you were each involved in the dispute over what the Bible says. Can you see the relevance of my comment to their dispute?
“This thread and the disagreement between dhG and pburgh related to the spiritual. This is not a language forum but a religion forum.”
Religious texts are written in languages, and those texts can’t be properly understood if you don’t know at least a bit about the language they were written in. If the religion forum moderators want to tell me that discussing relevant linguistic points about those texts is not proper in the religion forum, then I will listen to them. If some random poster tries to tell me that, I will disregard it.
“The page on etymology you linked to also doesn’t talk about what you say. It says when it’s believed that the word cuss developed from curse by noting when it first appears in written form.”
Well, you might have to actually click a bit on that site and read the entries for the related words that “cuss” is an alteration of, which are referenced in the entry I posted, but the information is there. I’ll just post the additional info here, to help you out:
“curse (n.)
late Old English curs “a prayer that evil or harm befall one,” of uncertain origin, perhaps from Old French curuz “anger,” or Latin cursus “course.” Connection with cross is unlikely. No similar word exists in Germanic, Romance, or Celtic. Curses as a histrionic exclamation is from 1885. The curse “menstruation” is from 1930. Curse of Scotland, the 9 of diamonds in cards, is attested from 1791, but the origin is obscure.
curse (v.)
Old English cursian, from the source of curse (n.). Meaning “to swear profanely” is from early 13c. Related: Cursed; cursing.”
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=curse
Note that there is no mention of the meaning “to say bad words” in that etymology of curse? This is because that meaning arose around the same time that the American English alteration “cussing” appeared, a new term which held only that new meaning, and not the traditional meanings attached to “cursing”. It’s only very recently that people have mistakenly attributed the meaning of “cussing” back to the original word “cursing”, and obviously the etymologists haven’t accounted for that usage yet in their references.
“It isn’t enough to look at references for Hebrew and Greek words. If it’s an important issue, I’m sure other Bible-believing Christians with language knowledge have written on it and that’s where I’ll begin.”
I’m sorry, but when we are talking about the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words, that is exactly enough. However, if you have some bias against non-Christian sources, then I assure you that the standard references for Biblical Hebrew and Greek were all compiled by quite Christian men, such as Dr. James Strong of the Drew Theological Seminary.
“You haven’t so much has said what cursing, in your view, meant in the Bible, much less offered evidence for it.”
Well, nobody has bothered to ask me. If you’d like to know what it means, just ask and I’ll be happy to explain it to you, and show you the evidence, if you like.
“Until you do that, you haven’t shown what your language point claim even is, much less how it matters in a dispute on a heart matter.”
Well, I’ve already explained how it matters, since you shouldn’t even begin to consider this “heart matter” that you keep coming back to, if you can’t understand what God’s Word has to say on the subject.
“As I said, I tend to avoid using “cursing” and use the word “profanity” instead.”
Well, the meaning of “profanity” has also broadened in modern times to includes this type of talk, which it did not originally, but that’s a whole other subject that isn’t really relevant to the Bible.
“That doesn’t mean that I believe “cursing” is wrong to use.”
It’s not really wrong to use, when you are just speaking modern English. It’s wrong to assume the words translated as “curse” in the Bible carry that meaning.
“In the Bible, though, the context suggests what’s meant, and I’m sure that even people who use cursing and profanity interchangeably are well aware that “to curse” can mean to call down a curse on someone or thing.”
Well, I’m not so sure, because I encountered posters on this very thread who don’t seem to realize to make that distinction, which is why I commented in the first place.
“Again, if the modern usage of “cursing” is confusing anyone, or if there’s any sort of problem with it, then where is the concern about it from Bible-believing Christians knowledgeable in languages?”
I’m not sure, but it’s a good question. Why don’t you ask them?
“I addressed my comment to you, dhG and pburgh because you were each involved in the dispute over what the Bible says. Can you see the relevance of my comment to their dispute?”
I’m not really concerned with their dispute, I only made my comment because someone seemed to be confused about the meaning of the word “curse” as used in the Bible. If you want to comment about their dispute, to them, then by all means, have at it, but I’m not very interested.
Okay, I’ve re-read your comment from yesterday. i can’t cut and paste as I may have explained, but I’ll respond to it as best as I can. I really have time to just talk about a few points but I believe that’s all that’s necessary.
On “cursing” not being wrong in modern language:
You also wrote that you commented to dhG because someone seemed confused on “cursing” in the Bible. However, if you look at the exchanges between dhG and pburgh, they had both adopted the modern sense for “cursing,” profanity and taking the Lord’s name in vain, in their dispute. Pburgh first referred to it as “cursing (or profanity). “ I believe pburgh also said something about there being nothing in the Bible about cursing. it would be surprising to have two Christians without knowledge of there being curses in the Bible, wouldn’t it? (Cont’d)
Between dhG and pburgh, they both meant, by “cursing,” “profanity.” I don’t believe there was any confusion on either of their parts that, in the Bible, the actual use of the word “cursing” typically means the type of curse in which a person or thing is cursed with a curse. That wasn’t the issue, but whether or not God’s Word prohibits Christians from using profane language, which it does. I did address my comment to them, but also to you because you joined in on that part of their conversation.
On cursing not meaning to use bad words until recently.
I’ll have to check into that further. For one thing, that etymology page on curse says in the thirteenth century it had the meaning of swear profanely.
Between dhG and pburgh, they both meant, by “cursing,” “profanity.” I don’t believe there was any confusion on either of their parts that, in the Bible, the actual use of the word “cursing” typically means the type of curse in which a person or thing is cursed with a curse. That wasn’t the issue, but whether or not God’s Word prohibits Christians from using profane language, which it does. I did address my comment to them, but also to you because you joined in on that part of their conversation.
On cursing not meaning to use bad words until recently.
I’ll have to check into that further. For one thing, that etymology page on curse says in the thirteenth century it had the meaning of swear profanely.
Between dhG and pburgh, they both meant, by “cursing,” “profanity.” I don’t believe there was any confusion on either of their parts that, in the Bible, the actual use of the word “cursing” typically means the type of curse in which a person or thing is cursed with a curse. That wasn’t the issue, but whether or not God’s Word prohibits Christians from using profane language, which it does. I did address my comment to them, but also to you because you joined in on that part of their conversation.
On cursing not meaning to use bad words until recently.
I’ll have to check into that further. For one thing, that etymology page on curse says in the thirteenth century it had the meaning of swear profanely.
“Between dhG and pburgh, they both meant, by “cursing,” “profanity.” I don’t believe there was any confusion on either of their parts that, in the Bible, the actual use of the word “cursing” typically means the type of curse in which a person or thing is cursed with a curse.”
Well, it seemed to me that there might be some confusion, and I have encountered that issue before, which is why I posted. If they weren’t confused, I don’t see any harm in offering that information, even if they didn’t need it.
“For one thing, that etymology page on curse says in the thirteenth century it had the meaning of swear profanely.”
Yes, but to “swear profanely” is another phrase that has taken a different meaning in modern times than the meaning it would have had in the 13th century. At that time, “swearing profanely” would have meant swearing an oath profanely (and by profanely, it means the original meaning, of misusing something sacred, rather than the modern meaning of using dirty words). An example of “swearing profanely” would have been saying something like, “by God’s wounds”, or other expressions of that nature that were common at the time.
Later, this “profane swearing” gave rise to what are known as “minced oaths”, which were thinly disguised versions of the same sayings, but omiting the sacred references that were being profaned. So, “God’s wounds” became “zounds”, “God’s hooks” became “gadzooks”, “Jesus Christ” became “Jiminy Cricket”, and so on. “Cursing”, “swearing”, and “profanity” have all taken on additional meanings in recent centuries, so the whole issue can be confusing if you aren’t already aware of this history.
Anyways, even if you were correct in surmising that “swear profanely” was an equivalent to our modern idea of curse words, it wouldn’t matter very much as it bears on my original point, since that is still a 13th century addition to the English language, and so it could have no bearing on what the words in the Bible actually meant. This is why I really think you aught to look into the Hebrew and Greek meanings of the relevant words if you want to see what I’m talking about.
I wasn’t convinced about “swear profusely, “ but offered that as one possbility to look into. One passage I intend to look into is the one which says basically that with the same mouth one blesses God and curses man and that shouldn’t be. Jesus also said that those who called their brother names, like “fool” or “raca,” were in danger of judgment and Hell (I don’t have the exact passage in front of me). I have already for a long time gone to the original Hebrew and Greek when I’m looking things up, and read from different Christians on the original words, to know what today’s translations are working from, but I thank you for the suggestion. I don’t really have anything else left to say about any of this, but I do want apologize to you for the gruffness in some of my responses. See you again around FR, then, if you spend time in the Religion forum, and God bless.
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