Posted on 02/12/2014 5:20:56 PM PST by NKP_Vet
http://www.sacredheartcor.org/content/how-and-why-i-became-catholic
Thanks for the post. It’s enlightening to see the interpretations broken down into English rather than blindly stated as fact.
So where is the written tradition?
rightness of prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees (12:40, 42, 44-45)
Maccabees, a book even the Catholics sorted separately. Great source for such a prolifically used doctrine.
We believe that God saved her by taking away all stain of original sin at the moment of her conception (the Immaculate Conception).
A doctrine concocted out of whole cloth.
The very fact that God took on flesh and became man (Jn 1:1, 14) indicates that He wished to involve human beings in His plan of salvation for mankind.
No it was because there had to be a real substitute for the wages of sin.
Catholics have an assurance of salvation if they are faithful and keep God's commandments (1 Jn 2:3)
In that case all Catholics are damned. It is laughable to then include Paul in this paragraph, considering his teaching on the Law and Gospel.
St. Paul does not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, one that can be lost: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12 - see also 1 Cor 9:27, 10:12; Gal 5:1, 4; Phil 3:11-14; 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15).
Paul taught that justification by grace through faith was a one time act of God with no input from man. Work out your salvation...13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
IOW fear and trembling because it is God working in you both to enable you to do it and for you want to do it because it is God-pleasing. Sanctification, a process that is perfected in heaven, Justification whereby a person is absolved by God of sins because of the grace God gave, through faith (that God gave) in the redeeming works of Christ for the sake of Christ's righteousness. Two separate issues.
Legitimate, non-baiting question: what is the scriptural support for praying to Mary or a saint rather than to Christ himself?
Matthew 17:1-4 1 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.* 2* b And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light. 3* And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. 4Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents* here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Jesus had no trouble talking to them.
Revelation 11:3-7 3 I will commission my two witnesses* to prophesy for those twelve hundred and sixty days, wearing sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands* that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5* If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone wanting to harm them is sure to be slain. 6They have the power to close up the sky so that no rain can fall during the time of their prophesying. They also have power to turn water into blood and to afflict the earth with any plague as often as they wish. 7When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss* will wage war against them and conquer them and kill them.
We also see them interceding for us.
Zechariah 1:12 12Then the angel of the LORD replied, “LORD of hosts, how long will you be without mercy for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah that have felt your anger these seventy years?”
Tobit 12:12 and 12:15 Now when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and likewise whenever you used to bury the dead. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”
Revelation 1:44John, to the seven churches in Asia:* grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
My personal favorite Revelation 5:88When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 8:3-4 3Another angel came and stood at the altar,* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
St. Paul does not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, one that can be lost: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12 - see also 1 Cor 9:27, 10:12; Gal 5:1, 4; Phil 3:11-14; 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15).
Kinda overlooked Ephesians 1:13-14 where we’re told the Holy Spirit seals us after we believe in Him. The Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance.
No where does Scripture ever say we are unsealed. Not sure where they’re getting this “salvation can be lost” theme.
If that is the case it puts your salvation back on works/deeds.
In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t come into play. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not that of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not as a result of works lest anyone should boast.
The clear plain teaching of the Word.
Do you believe that intercessory prayers are efficacious? Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?
It doesn't say that anywhere. That belief is a man-made belief. So the discussion really comes down to which man-made beliefs are we to believe? I'll take those of the Magesterium over anyone else's any day.
It doesn't say that anywhere.
Justification is a one time event, Eph 2. Sanctification of which Paul talks in the Phil passage is a process, that is perfected in heaven.
All Christians will sin, but the Spirit moves us to repent. Because we have been justified we are no longer blind to spiritual things and can respond. Romans 11:20
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
A believer must continue in the faith to the end to get the crown of life. The Holy Spirit is at work in sanctification; to resist Him to the end is death.
So this proves that as long as you are Jesus it's ok. Did the disciples converse with Elijah and Moses?
We also see them interceding for us.
In what way? They will prophesy and give their testimony.
As for the rest:
Zachariah passage makes no sense addressing praying to the dead. Tobit, lol. All the Revelation passages occur in heaven, where there are prayers in abundance. A better reference is 1 Tim 2:5 as to the destination of intercessory prayer.
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When someone is born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the believer is then sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. He is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Re: the Mt of Transfiguration.....
When Peter said something about Moses and Elijah, God redirected their attention back to Jesus and said to listen to HIM.
Talking to someone is not praying to them.
See post # 14.
Believers can sin, they can toss aside the gifts of God as Paul indicated and be cut off by the same unbelief. But they can repent and be re-united.
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
A christian can become obdurate and refuse to remain in fellowship with God. Of course at that time he isn't a christian.
Can’t respond to #13 anymore. But the question you responded to asked for ‘scriptural’ evidence, hence the clarification.
post #5 was exclusively scriptural.
Except for Tobit I agree. None of the references talked about prayer to the dead.
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