Posted on 02/07/2014 6:11:36 AM PST by CynicalBear
It isn’t. But the “church” the body of Christ is grafted in and called the bride of Christ and Christ is Jewish and followed and will follow all Jewish feast days.
OK, you’re the perfect person to ask this question...
in this passage in 2 Thess:
Does this mean that Christians will see the rebuilt temple, but that we’ll be removed before the Tribulation? or after?
I’m not sure about that, which is why I wasn’t “sure” previously....
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2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
For God so loved the World, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes on him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
He’d rather save sinners than destroy them! He’d rather scourge money changers than kill them, hoping to redeem as opposed to the flinging of their souls into hell. The ramifications of the law of Moses with its promised wraths are what we are stuck with when we reject Christ and his higher order of grace, love, redemption, forgiveness, restoration, and finally the promise of resurrection into a sinless glorified body! God’s love can be hurtful and sometimes angry in it’s purging(dividing spirit from soul in twain as the bible says)...inexorably probing, like a scalpel without benefit of anesthesia...but oh the relief when the infection has been carved out!
I was brought up believing the pre-trib theology which teaches that the dead in Christ rise first. However Revelation 20:5 explicitly states the first resurrection of the dead includes only those who die during the tribulation. “This is the first resurrection” is a crucial sentence in this regard. I learned a long time ago that phrases are there for a reason.
“5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.”
Revelation doesn’t actually say what they are wearing...figuratively or literally. It just said they were given white robes and were told to wait a little longer for the full number of their fellow servants to be killed before justice would be done for them. The Bible called them Saints who had been killed, so if they were deemed saints, they were wearing their wedding garments already when they were killed.(hence their redemption after death) But that all depends on when the church is taken up and the rapture occurs or if the Church goes at least partly thru the tribulation. Don’t know about the timing of it all.
For some strange reason I’ve always been kind of partial to a Trib rapture that occurs when the two witnesses are killed. The prophets are killed, lay in the street for 3 days, then when God resurrects them,. God takes the Church and all the saints with them...for it is that time all the most horrible prophesied events shall occur in the latter 3 years. Don’t have any other reason for thinking it but then again all the other argued about time lines have no direct biblical corroboration either. That the rapture will happen, the Bible is explicit about that!
Great question! And one I had as well.
Before we go into the second chapter that you quoted we need to look at the opening chapter to see what he is referencing.
First Paul references their patience and faith while going through persecution.
2 Thess 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
He then says it’s God’s righteous judgement that they may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God.
2 Thess 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Then he begins to address what is going to happen to those who are troubling them.
2 Thess 1: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
But look closely at the next verse and let it sink in.
2 Thess 1: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us,
When are those faithful to Him going to be resting?
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
Now you might say “well yeah they knew they would be dead by this time” but keep in mind that they were still under the impression that it would happen in their lifetime. Then go on to see what happens to those who “obey not the gospel”.
<2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Then the next verse Paul is talking about after the tribulation when all saints which would include those who came to believe during the tribulation will admire and glorify Him.
2 Thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Now you can go to the verses you quoted and see that “that day” that he is referencing there is the day that all saints will glorify and admire Him.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
There he is talking again about that day after the tribulation. So the sequence of events is:
True, faithful believers will be taken (raptured) to rest with Paul
The tribulation begins where God punishes the unbelievers and the antichrist is revealed at the end of which Jesus comes to “end it all”.
Then all the saints will be gathered during the millennium to admire and glorify Him.
That verse is why I am not “wedded” to a pre-trib view. Paul said we would not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. Other verses speak of “the Dead in Christ shall rise first and then the rest of us who are alive shall be caught up to meet with him in the air”. Matthew speaks of angels dividing the nations, sheep from goats...two women grind at a mill and one is taken, one is left. ECT. When you compare parts of scripture with each other, the picture that emerges regarding rapture event timing theory(not the rapture as theory but event timing as theory) of a later event, from mid trib on. We have been promised to have escaped “the wrath to come” but what level of wrath are we speaking of? The last 3.5 years of the trib are said to have been shortened lest no life be saved at all...Perhaps that is what the Church is ultimately saved from experiencing?
Other than the “rest of the dead” refer to those who were not found in the book of life.
It's just the opposite...We're always watching, waiting...We're ready to go...
Their get out of Trib free card will not be punched and they will have to ride the train to the end. The Tribulation is a test to winnow out the true faithful who will get to sit in the throne room with Christ.
No it isn't...Where'd you get an idea like that???The Tribulation is not to test the believers...It is to punish the unbelievers...
Of course there will be tribulation for Christians. The tribulation caused by Satan is vastly different than the tribulation caused by the wrath of God. That distinction needs to be made.
Exactly...There's tribulation for Christians right now, all over the world...Not so much in the First World, freedom of religion Countries...
mark
The ink was hardly dry from Paul’s first letter unveiling the revelation of the Rapture before the enemy was sowing confusion and strife within the Church. Paul had to pen 2 Thessalonians to correct these errors.
There's the rub...You can get anything by comparing parts of scripture together...When you compare all of the scripture, you'll find a pre-trib rapture...
There are 3 parts to the 1st Resurrection; the firstfruits, the harvest and then the gleanings...
The “Veiled” doctrine of the pretrib rapture?
Take a look at Isa. 25:7-9. Premillennialists, which includes pretribs, pre-wraths, and post-tribs, interpret these verses as the 2nd coming had just happened, the setting is millennial. “The VEIL spread over all nations” had been removed... death had been “swallowed up in victory.” Which Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:54, applies to the resurrection.
The setting of this “unveiling” is post-tribulational - which Paul interprets as the resurrection/rapture.
Which means the title of this thread is very misleading, no such thing as a “veiled” pretrib rapture, rather Jesus Christ remains veiled to this world until he is UNVEILED at his coming - which takes place at the inauguration of the millennial. At once, closing out the tribulation while ushering in the millennial.
Christ is veiled to the world, his coming will be as a thief to THEM, not to Christians who are looking for him, verse 9. The unveiling is the revelation of Jesus Christ to the entire world...and it is post-tribulational.
Cute way you lumped “resurrection/rapture” together. To those who insist on injecting meaning into a text I suppose it works. To those of us who “search the scriptures daily to see if these things be true” not so much. Paul was pretty clear in his writings that we will “at rest” with him through the tribulation and the Lord’s return to destroy the nations.
interesting! first fruits would be those resurrected who died during the tribulation, the harvest will be the final resurrection at the end of this world, and the gleanings will be when the sorting happens before the new heaven & earth are created.
Nope...That would bust into the 2nd resurrection...The first fruits are Jesus and those who went up from Abraham's Bosom, including the good thief on the Cross...The (main) harvest is the church going up...The gleanings are whoever are saved during the Tribulation...
I wasn’t being “cute” or devious when I said resurrection/rapture. One immediately precedes the other. There can be no rapture of the redeemed without there first being a resurrection of the same. I thought all pretribs believed this - I was once a a very studious pretribber myself, when I believed this.
Wheresoever the resurrection is, there will the rapture be also.
If tying the rapture to the resurrection upsets you, it must upset you more to see Paul in 1 Cor. 15:54b (quoting Isa. 25:7-9, in context) tying said resurrection/rapture to the revelation (unveiling) - so often in the NT referring to the post-trib event.
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