Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
No, ALL of the Bible was inspired. ALL of it is prophecy.
But, what about The Mystery? Something that was NOT prophesied, but hid in God from BEFORE the foundation of the world, until revealed to Paul by revelationS of the risen Christ?
The mystery must be in the prophecy (and it is), in order for it to be confirmed. It was hidden until it happened, just like Daniel required Hanukkah, Purim, and the Revelation of Yeshua in order for it to be calculated...
That makes up about 20%, but it's a BIG 20%. The most important part you will ever be a part of. And you are, you know, part of it, whether you want to be or not. Because we are LIVING in it. And have been since Paul was saved. And WILL be until the Church the Body of Christ is raptured.
No, it is from the cross, not from Paul. You forget Peter and Cornelius. And Isaiah. And you must understand that every argument has to come from the Tanakh because the NT had not been written yet. Definitions, pictures, allegory all must derive in the OT. That is where Yeshua was proven to those in His time..
In Bible college, I learned some Greek. From a local rabbi, I learned some Hebrew. As previously stated, I have no claim as a scholar. But, what I do have is the Holy Spirit alive in me. That is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. It is the same Spirit that Jesus promised that he would send when he left this earth. It is the same Spirit that quickens our mortal souls.
I have studied the Scriptures for more than 40 years now, diligently trying to show myself approved. I can say that I know my Savior. His Holy Spirit has shown me the schoolmaster we learn from the Old Testament. He proved through all those writers that he is a Holy God and speaks through men who can fail. But the Holy Spirit is God moving in our lives and keeping us until that day. It is the New Testament that reveals the way…
Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 1
1 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
He is perfectly able to protect His Name. But it is also prophesied that His people would forget His Name. Don't you think that might have somewhat to do with it's hiding in your Bible, and using generalities like Hashem and God (as you did just above)?
Why do you suppose Hosea tells of a day when we would no longer call Him 'baali' (LORD, yeah, Ba'al means 'lord') and would call him husband instead? What wife would use a title to address her husband?
Amen and Amen! If we can’t trust that 100% we have nothing.
You keep referring to the English translations. I refer to the original Greek texts we have available to us which are the only texts God preserved for us. Stop posting your man’s wisdom to me.
Rom. 16:25, Eph. 3:9, and Col. 1:26: "NOW to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY, which was KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN" (ROm. 16:25); "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ"(Eph. 3:9); "Even THE MYSTERY which hath been HID FROM AGES AND GENERATIONS, but NOW is made MANIFEST to his saints" (Col. 1:26).
There is a GREAT DIFFERENCE between that which was "SPOKEN by the mouth of all [God's] holy prophets since the world began" and that which was "KEPT SECRET since the world began".
You might want to re-think your position on this, since it FLIES in the face of what God has CLEARLY stated.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain...
Yes, WVKayaker. Thank you for the reminder:)
Claiming the New Testament is only 95% correct is not “foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law”. It is Satan’s attempt to discredit the word of God to us today.
Titus 3:...9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
The only thing that evil needs to triumph is for good men to say nothing.
My only point here is found in that scripture. I see the word heretic and apply it to that someone making such claims. I also see in my mind the old saying about “beating a dead horse”.
Neither of these Jewish wannabes make sense with their claims, when we have such a clear explanation from Paul. I will apply real rat poison theory to your 95%. Rat poison is good food like corn or other things, but it is that 5% other that kills.
Evil has been with us since before our creation. The Holy Spirit eliminates confusion and has shown us the right way. You can try and speak truth to a wall, but it’s still going to be a wall!
Ah! Thanks for clarifying. I’m only posting the counter to speak truth to the lurkers who may begin to doubt the infallibility of the scriptures. Satan’s attack on God’s word is relentless. I don’t really expect the walls to hear.
Since that same Word is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (a heart that is deceitful above all things,desperately wicked and not fully knowable)it's no small wonder he has so many accomplices deceived by a heart desperate to avoid that two edged sword!...so that IT can remain 'lord' and continue to drive the thinking!
It's all over this RF like a rash some days.Cant fully trust it,it's not the final authority in matters of faith,it's poetry and myth,there's other secret hidden knowledge,there's mistakes,there's additions,there's things missing,we wrote it,it's ours and we will tell you what it really means etc etc etc...
This little black duck will work out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling and satan will take his rightful place in the dirt under our feet!
And as the end nears it will only get worse we have been told. The more I see the more tightly I hold to the true word of truth.
.
The mystery that Paul mentioned, that the “seed of Abraham” was scattered among the gentiles?
What especially is it that you see in it?
Starting in Romans, Paul makes it plain that one must be of that seed to be saved, all that are saved are the Seed of Abraham.
Rom.4:
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
[9] Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
AMEN!
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name....Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:8,10)
BTW,I think that 'open door' that no man can shut is the rapture of the church.
Romans 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
Hmnmm, hadn’t connected that one. Will have to give that some thought. The assurance for those of us who are faithful to be kept from that wrath is comforting. Gives a peace in these days that most don’t understand.
It seems those that think they have it all are unaware of their own nakedness (ie:no robe)and will possibly go through the hour of trial.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.