Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Amen! And let’s not forget all the times recorded in the Old Testament sacred books where the Lord commanded that His words be written for a testimony for ALL generations. The written word, preserved by Almighty God - who declares that not a single jot or tittle (tiny marks on letters) will pass away - is an inerrant and unchangeable witness to the truths HE revealed to us and EXPECTS us to obey. Relying upon oral traditions is too easy to corrupt and pervert - knowing the tendency of prideful man - and God wants us to always know His truth. If it was good enough for the Lord Jesus Christ to prove His ministry and teaching, it SHOULD be for all those who claim to be His followers! Those who question the authority of Holy Scripture have ulterior motives that are NOT good and will not be blessed by God.
And drum up an audience for books in the works...let's not forget that.
And yet threads such this often expose the sophistry of RCs in seeking to defend by Scripture that which it does not example or teach, and RC arrogance at being challenged. “We are our own law” sums it up succinctly.
Not really.
I did; and the world I grew up in was not NEARLY as secular as today's is!
Sigh...
John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Directly, the verse speaks of the necessity to offer up our suffering to Christ , but that is exactly what a saint does through his martyrdom.
in no place is anyone prayed to in Heaven but the Lord
True, but we see people of all stature praying to living saints, saints in Heaven praying to God and the justified having abundant and alert life in heaven after death witnessing for us and to us. That is the scriptural case for veneration of saints.
If you want to try to help Catholics then you may have success
I want people of all persuasions to read the Holy Scripture with love and attention.
If you don’t believe in the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, you don’t believe in Jesus Christ. It is not complicated. You may have some fragments of faith, but you do not have an authentic and mature faith.
Hey, GD, here we go again.
Yet another one.
Izzat so?
Who knew!
Thus spaketh the CHURCH (or one of it's minions...)
Why?
It ain't enough - according to YOU!
Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father, interceding for the saints. He is not forever being sacrificed in heaven for people.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 12:36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.”’
Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Luke 22:69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Acts 2:32-35 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 1:15-21 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:3-4 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hmmmm, looks like the Holy Spirit is telling us in Scripture that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven except for ONE occasion. Sometimes Jesus stands at the right hand of God.
Acts 7:54-56 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. But [Stephen], full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
So just where did the Catholic church get the information to decide that this is wrong and they know better?
According to every Catholic I’ve ever discussed Scripture with.
bump
Which still does not translate to that there exists insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven." You simply have zero support that Christ is not directly accessible by believers in Christ or is not supremely able to intercede as the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, or that anyone prayed to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord . ZERO.
but we see people of all stature praying to living saints, saints in Heaven praying to God and the justified having abundant and alert life in heaven after death witnessing for us and to us. That is the scriptural case for veneration of saints.
But but but will not do, as this does still does not translate into PTDS despite attempts to extrapolate this to support this doctrine! Give it up.
In addition "praying to living saints" now is not that of believers bowing down to them in beseeching them to intercede to God for them, which even Simon Magnus was not shown doing after Peter told him to "pray to God," and who told Cornelius "stand up, for I also am a man, which censure works against the tendency to make gods out of those in Heaven, thus the command against doing so to statues. Meanwhile, saints in Heaven praying to God was not that of relaying prayer requests, but querying God as to when judgment would come.
Got to go now.
That is a typical Protestant false dichotomy. Veneration of saints is a part of worshiping Christ; it is a very nearly a necessary part given our cultural distance from 1c.; but it does not negate direct access to Christ in the company of saints such that happens in the course of the Holy Mass. Examples of intercessions are numerous throughout the scripture; if you cannot find them, I'll help.
this does still does not translate into [incomprehensible acronym]
To venerating saints? Sure it does. Mandate to pray for others did not come with restriction "till they die", and death to a Christian is a promotion to a higher state. Learn about basic Christianity, please.
This thread is not nearly as interesting or as lively as the other one.
Heresy...
It’s early yet!
Okay, well I will grab some sleep and check in later. :)
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