Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Iscool]

We also see the saints in heaven praying for the saints on earth, in Revelation:

"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

No proof verse for ya there...Angels are not saints...You'll have to try something else...

[daniel1212]

While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such "insufficiency" Daniel in response to that said it was "wrestling scripture" (348). How is quoting the original and consulting a dictionary "wrestling" or "false interpretation", but denying, for example, five times that prayers of saints are in the Bible and mean prayers of saints (Dan will fill in the details on that) is proper?

Because Col. 1:24 simply does not state or supply support for what it is invoked for, that there exist insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven. Which interpretation stands in abundant contrast to the clear texts expounding the sufficiency of Christ in those areas, and total absence of any PTDS, which is what your use of Col. 1:24 ultimately is used to support.

If Scripture were simply a "a source of reflection and inspiration" which you degrade it to being, then you could engage in this speculation, but it is far more than that, as it is the standard for obedience and establishing truth claims, and which disallows the leaps of logic by which you seek to support PTDS.

There is suffering which believers endure in manifesting Christ and edifying the body, (2Cor. 4) but there is no insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven. For rather than even hinting at what your extrapolation seeks to support, what Scripture plainly declares is that Christ is the mediator btwn God and man, and is uniquely qualified to be so, and thus believers are to "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:16) For we have "boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, " (Hebrews 10:19) therewith to meet directly with God.

but denying, for example, five times that prayers of saints are in the Bible and mean prayers of saints (Dan will fill in the details on that) is proper?

Your sophistry is increasing manifest, and your miscontruance of what i said will not succeed in hiding the fact that Rev. 8:3,4 also fails to teach praying to angels or that they functioned as a regular postal service by which prayer reached God.

Stop trying to support thisPTDS tradition by the Scripture and degrading them and you may retain some respect.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Luther's doctrine of "the Bible alone," as the sole rule of faith, isn't found in the Bible.

What I mean by that, is that Luther's doctrine isn't in the Bible. And yet...

Protestants expect every Apostolic teaching, whether handed on "by word of mouth or by letter," to be in the Bible.

Catholics find this ironic.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

You'll have to try something else...

OK

"the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

So the saints in heaven offer our prayers to God, as do the angels. (Rev. 8:3–4)

[metmom]

So the saints in heaven offer our prayers to God, as do the angels. (Rev. 8:3–4)

Well, THEY are saints after all.

However, even that verse is not a proof text to justify praying TO them.

It doesn't state which saints prayers they are and how they came to them.

That's convoluted, backdoor reasoning. Nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to pray to ANYONE but the Father.

On the contrary, when Jesus was asked by His disciples to teach them to pray, He taught them to pray to the Father with plenty of assurance that God the Father Himself WOULD answer us and give us all good things.

tell me. Do Catholics not believe that? Why on earth would a Catholic pray to a saint for anything when we have the promise of God the Father hearing and answering our prayers from the lips of Jesus Himself?

?

[RinaseaofDs]

“Why on earth would a Catholic pray to a saint for anything when we have the promise of God the Father hearing and answering our prayers from the lips of Jesus Himself?”

Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I forget the verse, but Jesus encourages us to keep praying, to keep asking. Asking the saints to pray on our behalf isn’t exactly sinful.

Ever ask dad for something when mom said no?

I realize that the argument is based soley on projecting human nature on to our relationship with God. I’d be in good company.

Psalm 131 is sort of where I’m at with this. Jesus encourages us toward persistence in prayer. Kids can be persistent. Heck, they can be excellent role models here.

[metmom]

Fine.

WE’RE persistent in prayer for ourselves, for our loved ones, TO God the Father.

Did your kids ask their friends at school to put in a good word for you with your parents? Would that have had more influence on you than you yourself asking?

[RinaseaofDs]

“Did your kids ask their friends at school to put in a good word for you with your parents? Would that have had more influence on you than you yourself asking?”

No, but my grandmother prevailed upon my parents to allow me to join the Boy Scouts. That worked.

I’m not pretending to know how it all works in Heaven, but when I see Bible verses describing David as a ‘man after Me’, it causes me to wonder whether some of His children bring a real smile to His face, while others are a pain in His toukas, even though He loves them all the same.

I’m convinced that being a parent is supposed to give us an insight on what its like to have the responsibility of being God the Father. I can’t cite a verse on this, but I know I pray for my kids to make the right decision, knowing full well that they will make their own decision.

I almost pointed out that, at least in God’s case, He knows what you are going to decide, and that’s an advantage. I don’t necessarily think that’s true. Ignorance in this matter may be bliss.

[metmom]

Is any saint going to influence God into allowing something that HE wouldn’t give us anyway?

And besides, many of the prayers to saints are prayers to them for something. It is NOT merely asking them to pray for us. They are direct prayers asking for strength or protection for example, FROM the saints.

A cursory reading of those prayers demonstrates that very easily.

Believers here on earth are commanded to pray for other believers here on earth and are encouraged to pray for other believers here on earth and there are examples in Scripture of them doing that.

What is not seen or commanded is prayer directed to anyone who is dead, who has passed on from this life here on earth.

Jesus gave us the pattern by which we should pray in Luke 11 and His command is to pray to the Father.

Now if someone wants to disobey that and not trust the promises Jesus made that the Father would hear and answer our prayers HIMSELF, then obviously, I can’t stop them.

But there are two problems. One is that it is not Scriptural and no one can even pretend that it is. There is zero Scriptural support for the practice.

And the other is that people can be easily deceived and led astray by it.

Prayer offered to saints is prayer not offered to God.

[Elsie]

Luther's doctrine of "the Bible alone," as the sole rule of faith, isn't found in the Bible.

There is a HELL of a lot more evidence for it than the many grafted in teachings of Catholicism!

---

PROTESTants find them unnecessary.

[Elsie]

Protestants expect every Apostolic teaching, whether handed on "by word of mouth or by letter," to be in the Bible.

You guys COMPILED the bible; so you should have been smart enough to claim, early on, that they were SCRIPTURE.

After all; you have made the rules that you seem to think we ALL should play by.

[Elsie]

"the twenty-four elders

So the saints in heaven...

You just plainly CANNOT read; can you!

[Elsie]

No, but my grandmother prevailed upon my parents to allow me to join the Boy Scouts.

Would she TODAY???

[Elsie]

There is a HELL of a lot more evidence for it than the many grafted in teachings of Catholicism!

---

If one tries, really hard, they can find the word 'written' somewhere in the following text.

Waldo did; so see if you can; too!

---

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

 

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

[RinaseaofDs]

In fact, there are passages that described people trying to worship angels, and the angels admonishing them not to do that.

Other than Revelation 5:8, I’d agree there’s no support, except to say that throughout our lives we are encouraged to pray for each other. It is not illogical, nor do I believe it is immoral, for one to ask one who already stands before God to pray on our behalf. Prayer from the unworthy is one thing, but a prayer from one in the presence of God on behalf of the unworthy.

Clearly, asking saints for stuff is wrong. Asking the saints to carry our prayers to God for stuff probably isn’t, and Revelation 5:8 is evidence perhaps that is indeed what might be happening with those prayers.

How many Christians out there now pray exclusively TO Jesus, instead of THROUGH Him? It’s not just a nuance, but there are plenty of people out there doing just that.

And not everyone who is gone are dead. Enoch and Elijah ‘walked with God’ and we’ll probably see them in the not too distant future if things keep going the way they are going, since eventually, they are going to have to die.

I wouldn’t do it, but you could pray to either of them to pray on your behalf and be on the ground you’ve staked out.

You commented, “Prayer offered to saints is prayer not offered to God.” It is if the prayer is to pray for them to God. God’s the intended target in either case.

[RinaseaofDs]

Yeah, probably.

Baden Powell’s goal was to find a common set of values, and as such all were welcome EXCEPT ATHIESTS. In his experience, no common ground could be found with someone so arrogant as to believe that human beings were the highest of the high.

What they are doing now, per se, is paying homage to ‘the Gods of the Copybook Headings’ as Kipling would say.

In other words, sponsors are withholding their dollars, and they are being used as a political football.

Scouts was never meant to be ‘Sunday School’, however, for many a boy the Scouts will be the first place in their lives that they ever set foot in a church.

You wouldn’t believe the number of kids struggling with the most basic question - “Is there a God?”

[annalex]

Col 1:24 does not state or supply support for what it is invoked for, that there exist insufficiency in Christ

It states exactly that, ὑστέρημα: "deficiency, need, want". Of course, in the context of the entire Gospel we know that St. Paul filling "things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ" is not thereby proclaims himself a Savior. So rather than making fantastic explanation to this verse an honest examination of scripture would compel us to understand that somehow a believer unites his suffering with that of Christ for the sake of the Church. That is all, -- it does not say that we should pray to saints, simply that a saint has a job to do for the entire Church. That job is mandatory because ὑστέρημα means void that is to be filled.

Read the entirety of the Gospel every once in a while, rather than the prooftexts in it you like, and you will be shocked how Catholic the Holy Scripture is.

Rev. 8:3,4 also fails to teach praying to angels

: ... and it fails to teach to brush our teeth and change oil every 3,000 miles. And the central prooftext for veneration of saints, -- not so much angels who did not suffer praying for our salvation, -- is not the repetition in Rev 8 but the entire scene of the Holy Mass beginning at Rev. 5:

[6] And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. [7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. [8] And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: [9] And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. [10] And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

[11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands, [12] Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction. [13] And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever. [14] And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever.

[...]

[9]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

[...]

[14]...These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he, that sitteth on the throne, shall dwell over them. [16] They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, shall rule them, and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Rev 5-7)

Observe that the prayers of the saints are offered to the Lamb "standing as slain"; that is the Eucharistic Christ ready to offer His sacrifice. He is praised for His sacrifice that redeemed the Worldwide Church congregated with Him; that is the Catholic Church that reigns today. The Lamb opens the Holy Book: the Holy Mass begins. Washed in the Precious Blood, the saints now serve Christ forever and He "dwells with them".

It is then that the prayers of the saints are offered another time, and then we hear the trumpets and therefore the end of the world that the trumpets signal has come.

What you just saw is the eternal Mass, which is our life today where we long for His judgement, and then you saw the Second Coming. The saints continue to offer their prayers throughout, and bring them to the altar, not in any kind of Jewish ritual of incense, like you suggested; rather these prayers are the necessary part of the salvation of the Church on earth that last till He comes again.

Liek I said, read the Bible with love and attention and we won't be able to drag you off the Holy Altar, where your salvation awaits.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

All the reasons that you gave are valid.

But we also forget that we are the Body of Christ. Our relationship with Christ is "horizontal," as well as "vertical." Praying for others, and asking others to pray for us (the Church Militant), as well as the saints in heaven (the Church Triumphant) is the Body living and praying as one. The saints in heaven are as much of the Body of Christ as the saints on earth. They are not separated from us. Otherwise, Christ's mystical Body would be divided.

Christ desired unity in His Body, which is one reason why we are commanded repeatedly in Scripture to pray for one another.

[metmom]

Christ desired unity in His Body, which is one reason why we are commanded repeatedly in Scripture to pray for one another.

FOR each other, not TO each other. There's a difference.

If the *saints* in heaven know what's going on here on earth, they are more than capable of praying for us without our praying to them.

And since we are clearly only commanded to pray to God the Father, then anything else is wrong.

There is no Scriptural support for the practice and plenty of reason to not bother.

To me the biggest problem with it is that it smacks of a lack of trust in God and His willingness to keep His promises. It's a lack of faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

[daniel1212]

Col 1:24 does not state or supply support for what it is invoked for, that there exist insufficiency in Christ

It states exactly that, ὑστέρημα: "deficiency, need, want". Of course, in the context of the entire Gospel we know that St. Paul filling "things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ"...

You left out the rest of my statement, "from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven," and at best you again misunderstand what i meant despite my explanation. Believers can suffer afflictions for the edification of the body because of the sufficiency of the atoning work of Christ, but there is no insufficiency in Christ as intercessor that would warrant praying to others in Heaven, and thus you can only argue from silence that any believer did so.

Read the entirety of the Gospel every once in a while, rather than the prooftexts in it you like, and you will be shocked how Catholic the Holy Scripture is

Your arrogant and insolent recourse will not succeed in covering up the fact that Col 1:24 does not state or supply support for what it is invoked for, and as has been abundantly substantiated, reading not only the entirety of the Gospel every once in a while, rather than just RC prooftexts and eisegesis, and you can be shocked how Catholicism lacks support and deviates from the Holy Scripture is. If God grants repentance.

That is all, -- it does not say that we should pray to saints, simply that a saint has a job to do for the entire Church.

But that is what this text is ultimately invoked to support.

Rev. 8:3,4 also fails to teach praying to angels

: ... and it fails to teach to brush our teeth and change oil every 3,000 miles.

Why do you try the same refuted analogies again? Because that is all you have. Scripture says nothing at all about brushing our teeth and change oil, while it abundantly speaks about prayer, and in no place is anyone prayed to in Heaven but the Lord, or mortals shown to be hearing and responding to prayer addressed to them in Heaven, or that there was any insufficiency in Christ such as a lack of access or ability so that saints should be prayed to.

And the central prooftext for veneration of saints,...is not the repetition in Rev 8 but the entire scene of the Holy Mass beginning at Rev. 5:

So not only does the central prooftext for veneration of saints fail to evidence or support PTDS, but which it is speciously extrapolated to mean, rests upon more of such extrapolation to support the RC Mass, which also is unScriptural.

If you want to try to help Catholics then you may have success, but if you are trying to provide Scriptural support for PTDS then what you have done is example the manner of leaping logic and absurdity that must be resorted to.

But frankly i suspect you are hoping to waste our time, like as frivolous lawsuits do.