Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Must be some Catholic rebels out there...
Yes, the spirit of the Old Testament is different, and you can find examples where good fortune was seen as a sign of righteousness. Let us not forget also, that in the case of Job the mystical meaning is likely that his reward is in heaven.
In the New Testament, the idea that wealth is somehow righteous is gone completely. Yoy can't think of an example? I posted a reference to the Young Rich Man passage (Matthew 19:16-26) in the post you are responding to. Here is another:
Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth. (Luke 12:33)
The monastic devotion is very clearly supported in the New Testament, even though the actual practice did not start till a few generations later, -- not unlike the veneration of saints.
I do. That is where our home is. If St. Timothy is to pray intercession while alive what is to stop him in Heaven?
they are not shown praying, but engaging in offering up prayers as incense
LOL. So offering a prayer is not evidence of praying?
So necromancy is forbidden because...
For whatever reason it was forbidden, that is your answer why you see no record of prayer to Elijah, Moses, etc. in the Old Testament.
Manoah would have known ...
Whatever you can speculate about his state of mind, the fact is he was sure he was going to die. That is your answer why we see no prayer to angels in the Old Testament: fear.
LOLOL!
I thought you would misunderstand. The Church does not "interpret"; it explains.
No one prayed to elders. True.
It says they are in possession of prayers, NOT that the prayer were addressed to them...
The saints bring their prayers to the altar. That means the saints pray. No they are not angels, the scripture calls them "saints" so they are saints.
Because he's dead!?
No hail Mary’s but you could get some holy soda crackers. They are good for the stomack ya know. -CB
But, but...
1 Timothy 5: 23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
Fear of God could, whose word is forever settled in Heaven, and provides zero evidence of them engaging in intercession, while again, being able to offer up the prayers of saints or ask God questions does not translate into hearing and personally responding to incessant prayers, which only God is shown being able to do, much less provide sanction for addressing prayer to them.
"So offering [up] a prayer [in Heaven] is not evidence of [those in Heaven] praying?"
No, it is not evidence of them hearing and responding to prayers addressed to them, which remains the issue.
"the fact is he was sure he was going to die. That is your answer why we see no prayer to angels in the Old Testament: fear."
Absurd, as were your other attempted explanations. According to this logic they would not have prayed to God whom they really feared, supposing this being was God, for in fact it was (the angel of the Lord). And who appeared unto many others, such as Hagar, but compassionately treated her as He did to others, such as Elijah. (1Ki. 19:5-7) And which stories Israelites knew. Once again you kick hardly leaves the ground.
This is redundant, so thank you for a b u n d a n t l y providing evidence via your arguments continually being refuted and sophistry exposed for all to see that the Roman mindmeld is working effectively to ensure the subjects of it only allow themselves to see whatever is needed to defend Rome, not matter how much overreach and absurd extrapolation and reasoning it takes.
Your mission is over, and this transmission is ended.
It mattereth not; for GOD will STILL getcha for it!
Uh; could you int...; uh; EXPLAIN this sentence for me?
In the New Testament, the idea that wealth is somehow righteous is gone completely. Yoy can't think of an example? I posted a reference to the Young Rich Man passage (Matthew 19:16-26) in the post you are responding to.
A typical Catholic response which demonstrates a lack of understanding because a small portion is quoted to try and establish something that is not there. By your answer, you condemn the organization you represent, because it hoardes treasure like no other. The wealth in Rome is contrary to your premise, because the entire magisterium is represented by elegant men.
So, with your process of eliminating the work of the Spirit in the Old Testament. The very easy demonstration of your error is that maybe you may see some mystical meaning in what I posted, but it factually states that Job became a very, very rich man had lived to a ripe old age with all the wealth. God blessed him on earth, and I have no doubt that Job's faith has brought him to a place of rest and surely will be in the presence of God eternally.
In your New Testament references, Jesus was answering a question from rich young man about “teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” Jesus's first responses told him to keep the commandments, but God knows our hearts. God knows what is most important to us, and after all this was a rich young man. In the end, the story tells us that young man who valued that wealth more than eternal life. That is the moral to that story, not that one must not have wealth. The lesson is clearly that we are to place nothing above our desire to please God. If you read further down, the implication by your definition is that staying with your family would be wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Matthew 18: 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I will liken that story, that lesson, to the idolater's in the Roman Catholic organization. Every one of the responses from the Roman hoard spins Rome as the source of salvation, with its requirements to place their faith within it. But, a proper study of God's word, not just the points that the Roman Catholic catechism stresses as necessity, but the simple things that are so easy to understand when you're led by the Spirit and not by men in fancy costumes.You think you can work your way into God's presence, but it is only by faith that you are saved. The Catholic response to that is that we must have works, but that is not the truth. It is our faith in Jesus Christ that brings us works by the fruits of the Spirit of God living within us.
I don't doubt your desire and hope. I can surely see your zeal in defending what you know. But, maybe you should consider seeking God's Holy Spirit and spending more time with his word, and placing your trust where it properly belongs. Following the Roman path will surely lead to death, for it is a hollow shell. It makes promises that it cannot keep for salvation comes through Jesus Christ and nowhere else. Nowhere else!
Romans 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Uh; could you int...; uh; EXPLAIN this sentence for me? -ELSIE
Hey, it's all Greek to me... We don't need no stinkin' interpreter!
19 οιδαμεν δε οτι οσα ο νομος λεγει τοις εν τω νομω λαλει ινα παν στομα φραγη και υποδικος γενηται πας ο κοσμος τω θεω
20 διοτι εξ εργων νομου ου δικαιωθησεται πασα σαρξ ενωπιον αυτου δια γαρ νομου επιγνωσις αμαρτιας
21 νυνι δε χωρις νομου δικαιοσυνη θεου πεφανερωται μαρτυρουμενη υπο του νομου και των προφητων
22 δικαιοσυνη δε θεου δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου εις παντας και επι παντας τους πιστευοντας ου γαρ εστιν διαστολη
23 παντες γαρ ημαρτον και υστερουνται της δοξης του θεου
24 δικαιουμενοι δωρεαν τη αυτου χαριτι δια της απολυτρωσεως της εν χριστω ιησου
25 ον προεθετο ο θεος ιλαστηριον δια της πιστεως εν τω αυτου αιματι εις ενδειξιν της δικαιοσυνης αυτου δια την παρεσιν των προγεγονοτων αμαρτηματων
NOBODY BUT JESUS CHRIST...
When posting in a foreign language on the Religion Forum, please always include the English translation.
I'm sorry, I left the reference. I was just reposting the scriptures from my previous post in the Biblical Greek, but didn't put the chapter and verse info!
That seems to be your entire theology...You seem to 'think something up' and it becomes truth...You are not any more right about Job than you are with anything else...
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
Job 42:13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
Job was blessed with wealth...
You're not going to win an argument with semantics...
in·ter·pret
inˈtərprit/
verb
verb: interpret; 3rd person present: interprets; past tense: interpreted; past participle: interpreted; gerund or present participle: interpreting
1. explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions).
"the evidence is difficult to interpret"
synonyms: explain, elucidate, expound, explicate,
clarify, illuminate, shed light on
That's exactly what your magisterium does for the clueless...They explain that water doesn't mean water all the time...Sometimes water means baptism...
You gotta quit making stuff up...There are no saints there...There are 24 elders and a whole bunch of angels...They sat the prayers at the altar...They were not praying...
No they are not angels, the scripture calls them "saints" so they are saints.
I posted the scriptures...They are angels in two of the verses and elders in one verse...No saints...
It's getting pretty deep in here, isn't it? God NEVER condemned wealth just the "love of money" which is the root of all evil. There are plenty of places in Scripture where this is demonstrated. For example, the patriarchs in the Old Testament (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc.) and in the New Testament we have Nicodemus, Joseph of Aramathia (he had that nice, newly carved out, expensive tomb for Jesus), Lazarus and his sisters Mary and Martha, heck, even Peter had a REAL house and a fishing business with his brothers.
What really WAS wealth back then? People who live in what are called "third world countries" today look at America's "poor" and think THEY are wealthy. Compared to them, they are!
Our FRiend, Annalex, makes a critical mistake in his interpretation of this story of the "rich man" and Jesus. The guy's problem was not really his money but his personal pride in his OWN righteousness. He came to Jesus and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?". Jesus, knowing his heart, said what every good Jew would have thought to answer, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." (something every good Catholic would be prepared to answer as well, no?) And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." The man, disheartened by what Jesus said, went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
The rich man thought he was righteous and didn't need to repent and need God's grace. He thought he was good enough by his own works to make it into the kingdom of God. So, not only was his own self-righteousness preventing him from seeing his need for grace, his great wealth was holding him back as well. It's obvious that NOBODY can keep the law perfectly, as this man presumed he had. He couldn't be honest with himself or Jesus that he was a sinner in need of a savior. His money was a symptom of his personal pride in his own worthiness and perfection and he couldn't see that he was really spiritually naked and bereft of any worthiness to save himself. That is the REAL problem we all must face. It isn't the having money that is the problem, it is the thinking that we don't need God because we have security. That wealth can disappear overnight (ask Madoff) and what is left? If we think, like the rich man, that we are "good" and obey all the commandments and have no need for forgiveness and grace, then that prevents us from being saved every bit as much.
Like Jesus said, with man, gaining eternal life is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible. That IS the lesson Jesus was teaching and it certainly was NOT that rich people have to give away all that they own and go into a monastery to be saved. How ludicrous! Many of the good works of Christians have been made possible by the money donated by wealthy people. God doesn't condemn money, just the LOVE of it in place of HIM.
Hmmm. And you're using who's computer?
Sure. And it doesn't worship it *venerates*. And so it goes, ad nauseum.
And that puts you at odds with your fellow Catholics who tell us without ceasing that the magisterium is needed to correctly *interpret* Scripture.
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